Learning Outcomes Leaders 012 | Season 1 Wrapped

Welcome to Learning Outcomes Leaders.

This episode is slightly different as it sees us wrap up our very first season of Learning Outcomes Leaders.

We hope you've enjoyed the podcast so far and have been able to take inspiration, insights, and ideas from your peers into your own higher education environment. 

We've put together a highlight reel of the conversations we've had so far, drawing on a range of expertise across the institutional experience. 

Let's get into the episode.

Transcript

Speaker: 0:03

Hello and welcome to Learning Outcomes Leaders, brought to you by Genio. I'm James and I'm Scott. And on this podcast you'll hear professionals who can talk the And today we'll discuss some of their proudest and most ambitious projects and explore the most effective ways in which they've helped to and elevate their students This episode is slightly different as it sees us wrap up of Learning Outcomes Leaders. We the podcast so far and have been able to take insights, and ideas from your peers into your own higher education environment. As season one. We've put together a highlight the conversations we've had so far, drawing on a range of expertise across the be back later this year for season two, so make sure to keep the ground for that. But for episode.

Speaker 1: 0:53

The reason for this podcast is Um, it's for other people to know how they could do something like this. Throughout our conversation lot of a mindset shift, I think, What would you say to someone who's looking to do something similar? Um, how would they go about Where would their head be? What would they need to do? I, I think you.

Speaker 2: 1:24

Just have to really think students first and you, and this is a cliche, uh, but, but one of the things is you have to teach and work with the students you have, even if you want a different kind of students, uh, you know, and, and I think at an institution like us or an institution like Buena Vista or an institution like southern Vermont, You know, you have to be genuinely proud of what you're doing. Um, and and this goes to the hobby horse of mine, but this higher education, right? The, the, the whole thing is Uh, and I remember early in my about that whole thing. Um, but the better way to go as a professional develop a, you satisfaction is to figure out trying to do and then take pride Well. Um, so if you're not a professor at Harvard, well, you know, there aren't a lot of professors at Harvard, you know, be glad that you're doing this other thing. And that's where my own personal changing that mindset. Uh, and, you know, my wife has a frankly, which is good. You know, she's like, stop being Um, but I think that's really And I think the question is, and this has been in my role as a, as a leader at every place, what is going to do the best thing for the students that we have and how are they going to be helped? And it's whether it's academic like the, the pandemic and, you that our population was going to to address those. I think that's really, really And if you're at a teaching there's kind of no excuse for Uh, and so that's my first question always is, you know, what's going to work for the students. And this is not about coddling This is not about giving them It's none of the things that people say are bad about this approach. Um, it's a, it's just about, you are our students and what's And then, and then doing the

Speaker 1: 4:15

It'd be really great to just sort of hear if you've got, um, one piece of advice, like, let's say one piece of advice for anybody listening today that is looking to, to roll out something similar. How, how do they get started? What, what's that? What's that sort of key thing that you would, you would say to them?

Speaker 2: 4:36

Oh, just one. Um, like I'm some kind of fount Um. You know, I think two things think they're connected. One is, um, you know, start, question that your leadership Right. Our simple question was, how have last semester? I, we, we can pull the data that's, that shows us how many appointments summaries were submitted by people that we call success coaches. But that is not the definition Some of those might have been Some of those might have been phone calls that never went through. Like there were so many submitting this form that was have previously, you know? So figure out a really simple data point that you would or figure out a really simple question that you want to answer and then go see if you can answer that question using the data. You currently have it at your And then the second thing is, is when almost inevitably you can't get your data people, wherever they sit in your organization and bring them on the journey with you from the start, because none of this happens without our data analysts being able to collect clean, consistent data out of two or three disparate CRMs, bring them together somehow in their magical data land, and then regurgitate them, render them back to us in a dashboard in a power BI dashboard. Right. If you if if those folks don't really understand the strategy behind why we're collecting this data, don't really understand what we're trying to render the data into so that people can use it. If you have to go explain that week, and they're not just in it's a lot more difficult of a result with things that data things that, you know, who are dealing with students that data want, people want to Uh, they're normally incredible. They're normally just, uh, not as readily usable as, um, So that that's what I would say really simple question that you data can answer it. Um, if it can't answer it or if you think it can answer it, but a data person comes in and says, no, actually that's not what this means. Um, then keep those people that kind of vertical structure Just trying to answer that

Speaker 1: 7:33

What are your hopes and dreams on higher education?

Speaker 2: 7:40

Hopes and dreams of. The impact of this type of thoughtful in what is most So I mentioned several analyses There were others that didn't And as we are moving into this going to change immensely. And it doesn't mean that the research that's been done is less valuable. It's actually more valuable that thread from, this is what Is it having an impact on where And with the the workforce work being so unstable, with such a a static infrastructure are going to need to be more more adaptive than ever. That means you need to be able inputs, what we're doing as students in their outcomes. And a lot of what is being done to be questioned, and it's going And so having an eye towards evaluation, towards measurement can be really important, especially in these kinds of transitions. So this is what I'm hoping to I know that Utah State is already engaged in these conversations of what are students going to, what experience are students going to need?

Speaker 1: 9:31

So what would you say to someone hi flex at their institution? What would you say? What advice would you give them

Speaker 2: 9:40

Thank you. That's a great question. So there's a couple of pieces of The first is I would look for So things take a while in And the way that you're from little actions. So again, to, you know, to I'm working with faculty and big problem that we're working problems along the way. It's like a computer game, you know, before you battle the big boss at the end, you battle the little bosses. So you're looking for ways that you can make life easier for faculty, that you can sort of demonstrate. Here's something that I'm on So ultimately, when you come to track record and you're looking So there are, you know, faculty asked to do more each year with in some more hours, do this. So if you are looking to make a change, look for things that you can remove. Look, the things that you can So someone has the ability to shift to a new thing. And then the last part is So that has to be rapid, way, which is two part. You're not just saying things. You're listening to feedback. So if I'm really involved in a my time is just spent on meeting people in their office, to chat on the telephone, you So, you know, it's not a thing Um, you know, at the snap of a It's not something that you thing that I'm going to do. You take some time thinking You create some space in your And you realize that this is something that's going to take some time.

Speaker 1: 11:55

I think that brings it back to Is it's all about change Building that trust so that when you do eventually propose this idea, which is going to be very difficult, they trust that you're the person to manage that situation and support them along through it. So to round this out, what would you say to someone else who's really interested in doing, in bringing AI into their, into their institution, perhaps building a course or just opening like faculty's eyes or the institute's eyes to how they use AI. How would you encourage somebody who wants to?

Speaker 2: 12:42

So first, I would say if you're heart, it's not going away. Just it's it's I'm sorry, it's Like it's gone. The hill has been raised. It is flattened. It's not there. And no, to that. You know, even if you don't want not be inform your personal. Ethical choices should not be information of students. Like that's your opinion. You're not a gatekeeper. You need to provide that I would say the next thing is, is making sure students understand the ethics of it so that they can make informed choices like, don't skip the ethics option. There's a lot there was a lot of discussion when we started our class about, do we really need to discuss the ethics because it's discussed so much in media anyways? Yes, you need to discuss it because you can't assume everyone reads those same articles. Um, and then our next, I think the next thing would be looking at what are the most likely uses for students in your area to use AI? So, you know, like we have a we know exactly where those We talk to those employers. What would you expect to have people do day one, what should they be able to learn within thirty days? What should they be able to learn within the first three months? Right. And then making sure that your set, that students are prepared have the kind of logical or learn the rest of those sixty ninety day options. I would also say that you do not There are a lot of AI classes Uh, find them and steal the best Just cannibalize them. I mean, really like there is no ground up in AI class anymore. In the same way that if you were building a textbook on chemistry. You would look at other You wouldn't just go, well, I sentence in original chemistry, You know, do this and reach out to other of your colleagues at other schools and see what works. That's the other thing is instruction is inherently iterative. A class will change from quarter faculty figure out what students respond to, even just on the assignment, but it's a giant to keep assigning it. Talk to the faculty about what this, and then be open to for this class, because this I don't know what it's gonna I don't know what's gonna look So just be open to that.

Speaker 3: 15:24

I like that as a key takeaway. I think AI being the, the new team building, we've had been working with PowerPoint. That used to be the, the skill that's what you had to learn. AI is that that new one. And so we can prep prep students

Speaker 1: 15:51

what would your sort of key professionals be that are changing sort of student dynamic things that as an institution,

Speaker 2: 16:09

I think this has to happen on One that has to happen, uh, with that metric of student success and satisfaction. So there's the KPI is, is more you're looking for. So be careful about how you're how they do it. Um, because as you well know, if be determined by where you want So thinking about success in a setting some priorities, right? So because resources are not is already exorbitant, cannot self-destructive, uh, pursuit of order to be successful. Right. So this, this is starting to create a kind of unsustainable financial model for higher ed when it was already struggling with that. Right. So sure, you can triple the number of counselors you have, but now you've tripled your budget. Um, and now you have to pay for And who's going to pay for that? So there's a lot of tension I the good thing, of course, is really smart people. Uh, they just have to know that it's not enough to advocate for student success. You have to do it in a way So that's a complicated The second level is about the And this is where college and other people who have a really need to be a lot more Um, I think that just shoring up the four year model and throwing more resources at it, as I just said, is not going to work forever. Uh, and so they're going to need model itself, for example, in a Do you really need a major to of your requirements, of taking up all of that time? Let's say it took up half of what it does now, and the other half was spent on building skills that were much more practical and applicable in the market where we married the concept of internship, which is very common with an apprenticeship which is more immediately practical. Why do we have one set of colleges that do practical apprenticeship like things, and another that do purely intellectual things? These are two good ideas. They could be married to each other in one program, but we're not really thinking that, uh, that imaginatively. Um, so I think, uh, higher ed has, has a lot of work in front of it. Um, and because of demographic AI, etc., financial challenges, hundred thousand dollars a year It's just staggering. We're about to head off a cliff And I think that this requires a avoid a plunge.

Speaker 1: 20:22

Um, if we could boil it down to or piece of advice that you've higher education when it comes this next barrier, this next What would that be?

Speaker 2: 20:44

Kind of a combo tip. So the first part of it is, um, this may be the first major disruption you've experienced in education, but it will not be the last. So keeping that perspective will help you remain a little bit calmer. This won't be the last one, Right now education is very much Um. The second thing is for higher education, connect with industry Partners, connect with people outside the campus and find out how we're writers, artists, artists, musicians, engineers, nurses, uh, athletic trainers, electricians, construction managers. How are people in the industries of your discipline using technology now? What changes are they seeing? What do they expect from And then bring that back and your students are going. That is our job in higher ed. We Even if the career is pursuing a doctorate degree somewhere and going into education yourself, how is. How are these technologies being I feel like a. I failed at at my If they get to a job interview for that interview that involves allowed to use it in college. So yeah. We our students are on a They have. We when we introduce Common would show teachers was a girl She was like fresh out of out of And she's just like this And the interviewer was asking her question and her only response was, I choose C, I choose C, because in most multiple choice tests, C is the right answer. And so she was prepared for a She didn't know the answer, so Like to me, that's kind of like if we don't connect everyday experiences every day, communication, collaboration, critical thinking. Um. With the students experience, technological non-technological. Um, they're not going to be experiences in life and career. After graduation.

Speaker 1: 23:47

You've been through a huge project here over over years to, to get to a point where we've got this massive data that we can use both qualitative and quantitative coming into the hands. Now we're getting to that, that moment, there's going to be are going to have two reactions. One is going to be, this is I can't wait to get started. This is super inspiring. The other side is going to be, I can't wait to get excited. Oh, this seems really daunting. Sure. What's your advice to, to those people that are about to start this journey and go, where do I start? How, how, how do I get to that

Speaker 2: 24:28

Pick something. And that seems really silly to say, but I will tell you, the first analysis I run, I ran, which was fifteen years ago or more, um, was looking at, um, our Hispanic students who um, either participated in community based research or sorry, I'm sorry. Community engaged. Learning or didn't. And that was it. And it looked at like, is this And that was it. And I was able to. And the reason I did that. So this is maybe like part two Pick something with a So I was able to pick that and, and in kind of with the stakeholder, um, show that information. And then like she presented it all sorts of, um, conferences And so it was, I was able to build the momentum from these small things because I paired a pretty basic analysis with the right stakeholder. Um, and then from there, other want that and I want that. And eventually it becomes, well, I can't do that until I get more resources. So there's a backlog now, right? And so it's like this grassroots I think if you're looking, if you are that person, that's like, I don't know how to do right. I don't know how to do this or like, I don't know how to start it. Um, I think that's what I would It doesn't have to be like a campus wide enterprise changing thing. Um, it can be one thing or two well placed marketing about it So it's getting the right stakeholders together that see the value in it, and then doing your best to show them that value. So and that's that part of like I couldn't say, hey, you know, found this and here's the This was statistically I had to say, it looks like percent increase in retention if or something like that. Right. So, um, it had to be that like Um, and that is what I would say to start or don't know how to Like if you have the interest and you have the knowledge or somebody that has the knowledge to run the stats, then just start where you can and start small and like, but, and then like, tell the heck out of that story, right? Like that's the key. Don't just run it. You gotta tell the heck out of You gotta, you gotta really be able to translate that to, um, what I would say, like a naive stakeholder. That's, that's what I would say, these data things all day long.

Speaker 1: 27:16

What would you what would you make the switch and trying to the first time? What what advice would you give

Speaker 2: 27:27

Um, persistence. Don't give up. I've had a lot of people where praises of higher education. I really do because I just think career to, to, to, to be a part helping people like you see it And I don't have a super student facing job, but in all my committee work, I get to see those students and how our initiatives and our conversations actually become successful and become better for the students. Right. But I've had people and friends, for this and blah, blah. I'm like, oh, um, I didn't even And then like, so I'm not gonna ever, ever, ever, ever do it again. I'm like, no, no, that is, I'm I don't know if it's common you right now in California, That is common. It took me ten years. You cannot use this one want to do it again. One that just persistence of if to do, please continue because You know, a lot of times there's a lot of things in the background. We don't know why and what So don't take that as a personal gotten rejected the first time. And guess what? All the positions I applied to money, a lot more of the kind of And this was a little more And I took a chance. And there you go, I got it. So like, you know, I got the one of out of all of them, probably Um, the other thing is, is that that it is not just a job. We, we are literally. Yeah, that's the hard part. I think I would recommend that to go to work and leave and to the company where it may be. And that's fine. That is a way I'm not saying think in higher education, and actually do your job, right? Because this is about student This is about students for a career, preparing them for Right? Um, especially in community transition of high school still transferring to a university or Um, but it is, it is, it is, it It's, it's people work. You know, it's, it's, it's very much even a step above, beyond customer service because that one interaction is not going to end just because they leave there. It's going to be continuous over And one bad experience could literally have them dropping out. We have heard stories like I was admissions records, and they were just kind of rude and I wasn't sure. And I'm not saying our people, and I just felt like I just And I just, I gave up, I just stopped trying, you know what I mean? The application process was I couldn't find anybody to help And it might be that or a It was the wrong information. And now I have another whole I have to go because of bad And I just felt like I need to And then life happens, right? There's there's all different experiences can mean literally So this is very much a more I think that I, every time I go just a job for me. It's literally changing people's And so if you want to work in that into perspective because you to, to remove that because it really is part of it scary and it's hard. It's, it's, I mean, even for me, know why I keep doing this to school for things and I'm like, And then I leave. I'm like, I really love that. I should do it again, you know But when I have those bad demoralizing and it's really So my big thing is, please know you get into higher education, more than a job, especially for rest of our lives.

Speaker 1: 31:31

The purpose of the podcast is so that we can help educate others, give other people ideas about what they can do to, um, help better themselves or better their students and improve student success. So, um, if you were talking to someone who is just about to jump into the same position as yourself or just moving into working within the accessibility space, within higher ed, what are some of the things you would say to them to help them, perhaps professionally and to improve their experience in order to be able to better serve them?

Speaker 2: 32:08

That's a fantastic question, and I feel like I have so much stuff that I'd love to be like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think that the most important I, you will have a lot of people talk to you about Being like your empathy is a weakness in this position because of how much we do with the law and how much we have to tell people no. Right. Um, kind of like I mentioned job to, if someone's asking for I have to be the, you know, sorry, can't do that. Your empathy is strength and it Um, when I say no, I don't ever look at a student and go, really? Like you're really asking me for have that empathy that I cling I hear that you what I'm hearing when you tell me that you feel like you need your test modified. What I am hearing when you say given the skills that, or the show your knowledge to what you Right. You as a student, when you come to me and you say, I need my test modified, one of the first questions I ask after that is like, how do you feel about the content? Ninety percent of the time students will say, well, I know the information, but I am bad at test taking. I struggle with time. I, you know, I need help reading Right? And so then I lean into that empathy and I say things like, wow, so it doesn't sound like you would need a content support at all. Right? Because that's how I say no And I can look at them and say, so you're fully able to do the work. And they go, well, yeah, yeah, And I'm like, yeah, I know that. I can hear that from what you're It sounds like to me, what you test read out loud. You don't need a modified. You need a read out loud. And I'm sorry that that support hasn't been offered to you before. It sounds like that maybe would have been really helpful to you previously. It sounds like you just need It sounds like. You know, it sounds like you've strategies before, which I was when I was in high school. I had to seek that out in And so here's how you can do Get those testing strategies. Now that you have your test right out loud and someone actually sits you down and teaches you how to take a test, right? So a really good place. And if not, please know that you It is so easy to get jaded and to lose that empathy after years of people going, wow, Avery sucks because she said no and bam.

Speaker 3: 35:11

Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam

Speaker 2: 35:12

But I would say that having, you having sorry, I'm kind of practicing radical empathy is space you want to be in. And as a disabled person, the space I want to be in is where I am told by the people who have power over me like that I am capable. Especially when I'm asking for because it's coming from a place Or when faculty come in and they say, Avery, what in the hell is this? Like, I have this accommodation And they are coming at me. Not in a space. I mean, it, it feels like space of Avery. You're dumb, right? But it's coming from a space of. You're giving me this I don't know what to do with it. I care about my students. I'm. I care about my subject. I don't want my students to not I don't want my subject to be, pieces that don't make sense. This matters to me. And the minute that and this So please understand that I am perfection where I will get. You can ask my my people in my man, this person came in. And that was really hard for me, And it really made me feel But when I take a minute and I with curiosity of what is your Like walk me through that. Or what I'm hearing right now is And I don't want that. Like, I don't want you to be Can we figure out a way to do Is it one hundred percent No. But if I was talking to field, whole life preserver, people perceive you and it will At the end of the day.

Speaker 1: 37:18

It's an interesting balance to Because I think is a is a human that we ever innovate is to make more comfortable, whether that instead of a horse. Right? These these things have increasingly, over time being, how is we going to make life easier? Learning's almost the one that we still have to actively make a little bit difficult and not impossible. But it still has to be a It can't be like a checkout at a And I think where, where AI has a lot of lot of tasks, we'll do Don't worry about that. Here it is that that in a way used in, in, in the right way. When you're looking at AI, then know you touched on things like What, what do you potentially see the future of that looking like when it, when it comes to learning platforms? Um, in, in the future, how, how

Speaker 2: 38:21

Yeah, I think, I think the conversation is very focused generating content and media. Um, and I know one of the big concerns in institutions is around how this, this sort of plagiarism and how it's really hard to detect some of this, this stuff. Um, but I think if you and that's a whole other podcast episode that we could easily go into, right? Um, so skirting around that, I you've got is, is how you really isn't through that traditional Um, I think AI is going to be And, you know, we've, we've talked a lot in this, in this episode about how you create that environment, that sort of unique, like almost special environment for someone to learn in a way that really is tailored to them. And I think AI is going to be incredible at that, you know, in terms of it understanding who you are and, and what resonates with you and how you learn almost, you know, what, what's the format and styles of which you're really like consuming content really, really works for you. And I think this is an area that Um, I think people are still sort of gen AI chat interfaces more powerful, uh, So yeah, I think, I think we're starting to sort of figure that out. I think we're figuring out, you summaries and text, like where, in a way that is nice and, and Um, I think the problem is everyone feels like they have to force AI into their product, but actually it's like, what problems are you trying to solve? And how can you use this reduce or remove friction where getting in the way of someone sort of get out of the way and go through a bit of a struggle to ensure that that knowledge Um, and I think the personalization stuff is just super interesting. Um, you know, we need to think which we do this and we need to and ensuring that everything, often you're dealing with people be, you know, particularly at that you sort of respect the building for there. Um, but yeah, imagine if you had you know, your, your dyslexia in know, how, how you work in a way work with your ADHD. Um, I think there's, there's huge potential for this technology that is currently untapped.

Speaker: 41:13

And that's a wrap. Thank you so much for joining us We hope you found the conversation valuable and that it gave you some ideas for how you can elevate your own student experience. Don't forget to hit that get your podcasts so you never Until next time, have an amazing