Learning Outcomes Leaders 010 | Avery Cook

Welcome to Learning Outcomes Leaders.

In this episode, we're joined by Avery Cook, Head of Accessibility Services at St Cloud Technical and Community College, to discuss the delicate balance when supporting disabled students in the K-12 to higher education transition.

We'll explore the transition from high school IEPs to college expectations, and why true college readiness is defined by the ability to ask for help, not just academic skills. 

Let's get into the episode.

Transcript

Speaker: 0:02

Hello and welcome to Learning Outcomes Leaders, brought to you by Genio. I'm James and I'm Scott. And on this podcast, you'll hear professionals who can talk the there and done it. We'll discuss some of their projects, and explore the most helped to improve and elevate In this episode, we're joined by Avery Cook, Head of at Saint Cloud Technical and Community College, to discuss the delicate balance supporting disabled students in the K-12 to higher education We'll explore the transition from high school why true college readiness is to ask for help, not just find out more? Let's get into the episode.

Speaker 2: 0:50

How we, so how we typically love hearing about how you got So, um, the question is, what's your origin story or formative educational experience? Um, but effectively like what, Like, why do you want to do And what was the driving force to get you to where you are today.

Speaker 3: 1:17

Oh my gosh, what a great And I'm gonna start with the answer is my mom, So my mom is my origin story because my mom, uh, I was a young disabled child, right? So I have autism, I have ADHD older brother and he has those and my mom did not let us be was like, oh, like, sorry, we It was tough. Um, and so that's kind of my origin story is that I had a mom who really just kicked me in the ass. And when it came to like, I was this was really hard. My mom was very like, yep, I get It's hard. I hear that you need to work for And that doesn't mean that it's That doesn't mean that there might be things that you have to change, right? Those accommodation things which I didn't have the language for back then. Right. But you can do it, right. And when I started growing up and realizing that I am in such a fantastic place because I had that person in my life where so many people who have disabilities didn't, you know, so many people had those maybe parents who were like, oh, uh, you're disabled. I am going to wrap you in bubble wrap and you will never experience hardship. And I will make sure that I will And I will do all of this for And when I was little, my mom was a little kid. But when I was in even in middle well, have you talk to your You know, I would come home and I'd be like, mom, this isn't fair. And she'd be like, did you talk And I'd be like, yeah, yeah, And she'd be like, have them that you talk to them about it. And then if, if I get that piece still isn't resolved, I will go And some people don't have that their parents might not be Right? Where it's like tough boots, you know, pick yourself up by your bootstraps and then you have the, like I said, the bubble wrap parents where it's like, I don't ever want you to experience any type of negativity, and I feel very lucky to have had that parent who made me face the reality of being disabled at a but safely over time. Um, and so when I got into, I started SEO, which is a thing here where it's like, basically you can start school and, or college and high school for free. Um, and I started SEO. When I was in my senior year and And basically I just started taking classes in history because I was like, well, I don't know what else I want to do. And I'm a big history nerd, so And I got my bachelor's degree museology, the study of museums. Um, and I realized that that's not what I want to do because I picked my major when I was sixteen years old and my brain was not developed in the slightest. So when I was done with my bachelor's degree, I went for my master's degree in rehabilitation counseling, which is specifically surrounding like counseling for people with disabilities. Um, and that is again, the I was complaining to my mom, She goes, do the thing you're And I have a minor in American And she was like, you care about Go do something with it. And I've always been interested So I got my master's degree. And while I was working in my working as a graduate assistant office within my institution. And it just kind of all went students who, like I was talking like that didn't have the well, what do you mean? I never had to take a math class Like I have a math learning to do that. And I went, huh? Your mom didn't strap you down it's going to be hard, but Like. And they're like, no, my mom And so now I'm, I want to be an accountants make money, but I I was fourteen. And I went, well, that's probably not the right path for you. Right. And seeing that there are those And I, the phrasing I use here tough love and sometimes you And we and student affairs, I which is crazy. I think there's a lot of I think there's a lot of students with disabilities, is them with kid gloves or like And I think I at my last at least, I can't tell you what among students, they were like, sucks, but in a way that the meeting where she tells me to world you're in, let's focus. They come back to me weekly what this happened. And I'd be like, yeah, girl, Here's how we can handle that together because they're learning too. And so there's no point kicking saying, see you later. Like, have a good day. The important thing is that we are there and able to support them. And I fell in love with that. I fell in love with it. Seeing students who were like me that I identified with, even if it's not disability specific or the same. But I remember that moment where I transferred from high school to college. You know, I remember that moment literally, and I'm not even My mom literally made me take a piece of paper to my teachers to have them initial that I talked to them so that I started that self-advocacy journey with accountability. Right? And at the time, did I Yes. And you know what? This is my public apology to my Um, but those accountability eleven made such a difference. And to be able to support students who, again, might not have had the access to those things and for them to have a safe place where it's like, you know, I am a neurodivergent, I've had that experience, even if it's, you know, different than mine. Like, I can empathize, I can You're never going to get judgment from me when it doesn't work. You're never going to catch it. You're never you're never going say, Avery, I tried and I got Yep. That happens. I'm glad that you tried. I'm glad that you got all the way up to the sent about to send the email. It's a huge step. So long story long I can yap But that's kind of how I got And you know, all thanks to my Shout out Dana Cook.

Speaker 2: 8:37

I, you know, I love that story. It resonates with me hugely. I, um, so I, I have dyslexia and my parents, but it's probably more so from like a lack of knowledge or experience around the case, but it was kind of like, ah, that's, that's, that's nothing. Don't worry. You can still do what everybody Don't worry about it. And at points in my life, I benefited from maybe someone understanding and like you said But yeah, the level which I've benefited from actually being a stubborn, working class boy who can do anything that he wants to do.

Speaker 3: 9:16

Yep.

Speaker 2: 9:17

Is is so valuable. And I'm sure James will attest I might, I might spell every But if you can, if you can work know it's right. Like, yes, I and to this point, it's spelt wrong, but you can That's all right. Cool. You figure it out. Yeah. Um, but there was a, there's, my, my, my parents instilled like a really good self-advocacy for myself and, um, my learning differences when I went to, so I got put into, I was getting taken out of, um, math classes so I could go to, uh, dyslexia led classes. And this was bloody twenty years Right. Um, so it was when there was for support for students who Um, and that one size fits all from then what I needed. So I always felt like I never needed to be there, but I kept on getting forced and I got in quite a lot of trouble for absolutely just abstaining from going to, um, I'm not going to them anymore. I'd rather do maths and I'm not I don't need those anymore. Um and my, my mum got told quite I got told off quite a few times about it, but I was like, do you feel like you need these classes? I was like, not at this level. Everyone was like, then, cool. You don't need to go to them. Just tell them. I said, you don't go to them and Trusting me to know what I need I mean, I went to university and every single support ever, which Um, but, um, knowing that I can do things on my own is like, it's super valuable and that's been instilled. So I like really resonate a lot And that upbringing is really

Speaker 3: 11:05

I think I completely, completely

Speaker 1: 11:10

You, you obviously mentioned about the, the two types of, of, of parenting that you get, you know, almost the, the, the tough love and the cuddle love side of things. I guess obviously, because love sort of side of it. How have you found it when you that have had cuddle, love and still wanting to be heavily experience, how, how have you from your experience versus sort experience of things?

Speaker 3: 11:42

That's a fantastic question that I do think needs to be asked more often. So anybody who's listening write though, that's a question that Because I will say, when I first started in this field, the one thing you were gonna if we had had this podcast four years ago, the first thing I would have said is parents are the bane of my existence because I. And maybe there's still a part of my heart that really, really believes that. But what I see when I have who are a part of that, more type of like mindset, right? Where it's like, I am here to I would tell you that those sense of self-efficacy, like a their ability to do something. And I think that comes from this narrative that parents aren't saying. So no parent, well, maybe I can't say no. Ninety nine percent of parents that walk into my office would never look at their kid and say, you can't do this. But it's the non-verbals. It's the when the student starts to answer for themselves and then the parent cuts them off and goes, well, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because that just tells the student that whatever I was going to say wasn't going to be right. Right. And one of the things that I no science behind this, but one that more often than not, it's the, the eighteen year old boys like, I don't believe in your. And again, I'm generalizing The behavior is. I don't believe in my son's So here is how I'm going to kind But on the flip side, there's a which is that student always has someone will help them. Right? So when one of the questions I we're talking about who to go to? If you have, if you need help, always go into it can be me. It can be, you know, your advisor, whoever, just make sure you go and talk to somebody if you're struggling. And all of those students who up, they're like, I know that I She might take over, she might, you know, go over, she might totally blow it out of proportion. But I know my mom will help me. Yeah. And I think that that security I'm at a community college. I don't think I mentioned that I'm at a two year community space, a lot, a lot of folks are transition space, almost as like It's not, this is legit college. Um, but I think a lot of people see it as like a strong learning environment because it's smaller, right? We're not having two hundred Um, and so students can kind of little bit more, really get the And when they have that parent and willing to listen, they can, Right. And when we have students and I, again, I can attest to this personally that come from more of that tough love background, they're less likely to ask for help, right? Because they're like, no, no, And if I and this is, this is a had to unlearn when I was in can't do it, then my disability Where it's this idea of I have And I again, I see that every well, I'm, I'm only here people accommodations and they go, I'm And it's like, okay, like, I'm glad that you are here to any regardless, but this is like this dialogue, this dialogue you have that you have failed is incorrect. Right? Like, I hate to be that person, Yeah. Sorry. I kind of got off track there,

Speaker 1: 15:54

No, it's I think it's really, I think it's, it's a really important point that and I think it's actually something that I, I certainly experienced as a student that had disabilities is the moment I asked for help was the moment I had reconciled in my head that I'd done something wrong. Not that support was on offer to And that actually the system is are going to have these peaks institution is there to help you But also while you're in the And I wonder, you sort of sizes and things like that. The first thing that sort of came to mind for me is obviously, as I hear countless times, is that it feels like you're sort of jumping off a bit of a cliff when you're, when you're a student in higher education versus high school, it's, you know, all of a sudden there's not as much hand-holding. There's not that hurdle of But if you go to a college that's sort of smaller with a class size of, say, thirty, it's still sort of feels when you're in that classroom like you're in high school. So maybe your guards down a little bit less, you know, maybe you're still living in the same town, for example, you're getting the same, yeah, same bus and things versus, you know, going out of state and things like that. I wonder, did you, do you think you sort of hear from students sort of support at a community or just in general.

Speaker 3: 17:17

Yeah, I think that I think it's I think when I have students who come in, especially straight from high school, they really do see this as training wheels college. And I think that there is and don't tell my office I said this, not that this is going to be like posted publicly anywhere. Um, but I think that there's As someone who has gone to university full four years, the, you know, the three hundred person lecture halls since I was literally sixteen years old, that is truly like thirty person classrooms are a different thing, right? Like when you can, when your instructor knows your name, when your academic advisor knows your accessibility coordinator personally, because it's a small institution, right? That makes all the difference in Um, and so I, I think that the rigor of the classes is the same. And so people who say training wheels college, I think they're talking more about the independence. Yeah. And that's one of the things that I, I really like to talk about when I'm working with parents and students is that when you're here having this more of a community, the community part of community college is the staff and the faculty you're going to have the college level is the rigor of the work. You're still going to have to do You're still going to have to So if you're coming to community college because you think it's going to be easier, that's tough. But I mean, I can't tell you how one of the folks in our small I mean, I think we hundred people on staff. I think we probably have less We might have two hundred people on staff And I know those people well. All all of them. I know probably everyone here by I can probably tell you pretty significant things about each person. Like, oh, I know that this of town and I know this person really strong knit team here. And that's the stuff that see in the behind the scenes and you say, yeah, I had an IEP to Avery, right? And they go, oh yeah, yeah. And they can go, no, no, no, I She, she will take care of you. She will do this. She will do that. That's the type of stuff you're and not this is an ad for do what you gotta do. But I do think it makes all the who have that, what we were experience, we're knowing that accessibility person know each keep things accountable. Like it's huge.

Speaker 2: 20:10

Yeah, I, so I, um, part of my with like smaller institutions. So you're looking at like three Um, and the one thing I hear so regularly is the difference between like, it's kind of like high touch and low touch support, right?

Speaker 3: 20:26

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:27

If, if I know that as a student, the corridor and know their name this person is? Like, it's so much more easy and not be like being too Um, because that's just going to do the thing I need to do, that person because I don't know And in terms of adjusting then, you mentioned, um, the academic and that self-advocacy.

Speaker 5: 21:09

Mhm.

Speaker 2: 21:10

What, what type of things do you to help with them to adjust to

Speaker 3: 21:20

Yeah. The actually, you know, this is something that I counterparts to do as well, is our school districts is. And that might be an extra step doesn't make a difference. But I personally think it does special education, you know, district of our area. Right. Or I will talk to, you know, the in the area and their specific and four coordinators. And I'm gonna, I talk about, I make sure they all have. And it's the differences between Uh, and it walks through what And on the back, it talks about things students should know about themselves before they start college. And that's one of those things I don't care if you as a IEP into college, if they tell you you should be talking to them that at the college level, we So one of the things that I've had, one of the things that floors students every time is that I cannot modify their tests. So students will come and they'll have the experience of, well, I have a learning disability. I've had a learning disability I've always had some of the options on the multiple choice crossed out for me so that it was basically a fifty over fifty versus a twenty five percent chance if I was guessing randomly. And I have to be the person that says, I'm sorry that you had that support for twelve years, you will no longer be getting that support. And then they go, what? That's the issue when it comes And so I try to, to the best of my ability, get that addressed before students walk in the door. And hopefully by connecting with IEP five hundred four, the Sped if you have a student who says these are the things you got to You have to explain to them that modifications aren't things that transfer. You have to explain that IEPs aren't transfer documents, right? They end when you're done with So when you're here, we come up sparkly for you. Um, and that has been a real difference where, you know, a prepared, if not one hundred they're more at like fifty than Um, and another thing that I is one of our school districts for their Sped population. And I go to that one to talk to parents again, bringing up parents again, but um, and to explain to them like it is not the same your student because they're leaving college with a certification saying that they can do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah thing. We have to make sure that they that everyone else is. But how they do that, right? We can make those, you know, We just cannot change their And people are like, I've had, I look at me and go, I've never All I've heard is accommodations and accommodations are what you And it also gives people the the want to be a welder. So I work at a community and So we have a lot of students who will come to get a degree in welding or carpentry or plumbing. But sometimes when after I give that spiel, I'll have parents come up to me and go, uh, you know, I don't know if he can do it. And I'm like, you can do it Reframing that, you absolutely helpful to go be an apprentice Yeah. Right. Like go into the field, see if you like it, see if it's worth the hassle. Right. And if it is, if you find that feel passionate about. This is something I care about. Um, and it's something that I want to start working up in the ranks for. And college would be a viable Come back. We want to have you and we can Right.

Speaker 1: 25:52

I was, I was really intrigued by the so for the listeners, the almost like a bookmark that you've got with, um, with things about the differences between, between K-12 and community college. But then the other side of like what you should know about yourself. What are some of those things Because I think when, when I think about myself, when I was a eighteen year old going into, into university, I picked a degree because I thought it looked good. Luckily, I enjoyed it, but the wanted to move away from home. Yeah. I wanted to get this thing called a degree because apparently it would help me get a job. I think that's all I knew about Oh, and I want a beer. They were the three things I

Speaker 3: 26:35

Absolutely. And honestly, like, those are think are like canon events, you Like every single person who is you know, you're gonna say as you go through. Um, but I, you know, coming from had that experience as a young So I know that I have ADHD and I lot, but like other than that, Like I, you know, the specifics Um, I can tell you when things this is really hard for me. And I, I'm really struggling to communicate or like, you know, those little bits and bobs of everything. But if you would have asked me accommodations, accessibility the impacts, I'd probably be Like, because you know, when you Like it just is your life, Like, I don't think I would ever look at Scott and be like, oh yeah, man. Like, so, you know, spelling is And you'd be like, mm, no. And Like, well, you're dyslexic, I probably would be like, oh Yeah. Like Scott can't like, that's you didn't have dyslexia. So it's this idea, like that's identity until you identify it a disabling thing for me. And here's my little riff that I time is diagnosis does not mean You can have a diagnosis that But disability is why we use So some of the things on that list are about like, I've had students who come in who don't even know what their disabilities called. And again, do I personally as chair super care about that? No, but you as the student absolutely should know that, you know, um, the impacts of it, you know, like what I was just talking about is like when we talk about accommodations, I'm not accommodating with a giant box that says, oh, you have ADHD? Here's a box of accommodations We're going nitty gritty as like ADHD for me and ADHD for you could be one hundred percent different. So let's make sure we're giving And to do that, I need to know Um, other ways, other things on disability create a barrier So we talk about those impacts, Where it's like, yeah, like ADHD That's always my silly example I But the barrier that that can work settings is I do not do the listeners at home can maybe Um, and so when I'm in a group work setting, I oftentimes will just kind of go, okay, well, this is my thoughts and blah, blah.

Speaker 4: 29:40

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

Speaker 3: 29:42

And then people go, okay, like, maybe she's taking over a riffing, I'm just riffing. And, uh, but when students know that about themselves and they can articulate that with me, we can start creating a stronger plan. Um, one of the questions on here are, what are your academic strengths? You know, so another way to phrase like, what are your barriers is what are your strengths? Um, and another one that I what accommodations, if they had or didn't work well. That way is another way for them to think about what accommodations did I already have? Right? Again, I can't tell you the number of students who walk in here who have had IEPs their entire life, who could not tell me a single thing on that, that piece of paper, and I was one of them. So there's this general idea of for you, because I could tell coming into high school or tell you what I used, but I had, which in my role in college makes me say, well, if you had you need it? Yeah. Right. But if they're like, yeah, like was blah, blah, blah, blah. That is good and helpful otherwise students might not So, um, those are some of the And then I talk with counselors does, does your student know how Right. Another one of those things, know before they start college. They should know how to ask for Um, I always have this rant about college readiness where people tell me that college readiness is your ability to do one plus one, or to write a paragraph. I think that's stupid. I think that college ready. I can teach you math, and I can But if you're not comfortable I can't teach you that, right? I can try to make you I can try to encourage you to do I can give you resources. But if you're not going to

Speaker 1: 32:02

It's a skill for life as well that I think that that's something that often gets missed sometimes in, in, in university when we sort of talk about, um, higher education in general is, yes, you're getting this degree in plumbing and welding and things like that, but actually you essentially become a project manager when you're doing your dissertation, you're learning how to, um, communicate with lots of different people, group group projects and things like that. And some of those skills that I learned through that international communication. You've got students from around the world out of state, wherever that is, that you wouldn't have ordinarily been able to interact with. I think that's something that meaningful. And so yeah. Student. We use this all the time when coming and working at the come and ask. We don't necessarily want to be. Do you need help? How are you getting on? Because we don't want to also be But we, we want we want to see themselves constantly, whether university or, or sort of in,

Speaker 5: 33:15

It's one hundred percent.

Speaker 2: 33:17

It's the hidden curriculum, It's like, yes, it's the, it's how to do. And you just suddenly expected

Speaker 5: 33:25

Oh my.

Speaker 2: 33:25

God. It's it, it, it baffled me. It baffled me a lot when I first university, because I definitely I was just going and doing whatever I wanted and I, I reproduced, I still do it to this day to a lot of work, a lot of work. I reproduce things that have don't ask if it's been done, I

Speaker 5: 33:49

Yeah. Um.

Speaker 2: 33:50

I don't, I don't have an ADHD things that you've spoken about because this podcast I am, it's trying to keep my mouth shut like, oh, I got put in there. Oh, I got put in there. Uh, but I don't, I don't, I let Um, I, um, you've spoken a lot are coming from high school. Um, but community college is students which have been out of What is that transition like? What do you do to support them they typically struggle with

Speaker 3: 34:33

Absolutely. For our, I typically refer to them as like non-traditional students. Um, those are the students where is validating their lived Um, I think that of course, We do that with our eighteen Or our eighteen to twenty one who are maybe they took a gap year, but they're still basically fresh out of high school. Uh, it's like we always want to experiences, but when it comes coming back to get their nursing for forty years or whatever, and This is something I want to do My kids are out of the house and I'm taking care of myself, And it's like, get it, girl. Um, and one of the biggest things, one of the biggest mistakes that I definitely have made before, but I am since learned better is like, you're not like your lived experience as a disabled adult, a disabled person in the workplace like That is more important than anything I have to say right now. AM I able to just wave my wand want just because you have lived No. But if you come to me and you say, hey, these are the accommodations that I get at work. This is how I am planning to use These are the medical stuff that Here are the struggles I'm What can you do to help me? I'm not going to go where I might with more of like an eighteen year old student, I might go. Tell me more about that impact. What do you think? What do you think your strengths I'm not going to ask those Right. Because they know and they were they were telling me even in a way that if they're talking about work and like, this is what I do in my workplace, I can take that information and apply it. Right. Um, I think sometimes we get into that, that tunnel of or that tunnel vision of, you know, we're here to help with that transition, help these baby birds fly. And it's like, you know, sometimes it is this people who already know what they're up to, right? Um, I think another big part of working with adults, like more of those non-traditional adults is a lot of it's okay that you're here. Um, there's a generational gap in asking for accommodations for sure. And especially when it comes to thinking like very here, like doing, uh, like they're like, well, I have like, I've never had an issue have arthritis and I can't take don't know any other way to take school, when I did college, the forty five years. I know I can write, but my wrist for an hour anymore. Those are the ones that it's a little bit harder because I almost have to talk them through their own, you know, mental block. Right. Of you do deserve this just Just because you haven't been Doesn't mean that you don't deserve to get support now, right. Um, I think that's a big thing know that they deserve this and maybe mushy gushy, but I really nontraditional students, it is off to be here. You have tried. You have you're finding a way to kids at home, right? You know, you should. You deserve help and it's not. And I this is another thing that I always tell people is like, this office is does not exist because my college is specifically like a kind one, right? This office is a. Like your American in our space, right? Like you, you deserve this. This is your right to access. And if you don't want to or you to do that too. But please know that I'm not kind and, you know, like little gives people little treats every Like my job is to make sure that And I also let like specifically if you don't need it, I will not That's my job, right? If you ask for something and I say, well, you know, oh, like, can I get a sign language interpreter? You can hear, well, yeah, but I No. Right. Like that's my job. And sometimes that just makes I can ask for things and still get told no if it's not reasonable.

Speaker 1: 39:31

I think it's really good to be able to to validate people like that. I think especially sort of when we look at generational differences over the years when it comes to attitudes of disabilities in general, but then your own disabilities as well. I know I'm I'm twenty seven, but when when I was eighteen, I was sixteen, seventeen when when I was diagnosed with, um, with my disability, which is it's basically raynauds and hypermobility. I couldn't write a, a four piece of paper without being in absolute agony. I thought that was normal. And everyone went through that the laptop and my grades went But I know how I felt as a, as Now, for somebody that grew up and eighties where attitudes imagine that it's they almost themselves that it's okay to And then it's another thing to to tell themselves it's okay to then go and ask for, ask for the support and actually go, go in there. Maybe there's pride involved as Like, like you said, you know, I've never needed this help in, in forty two years of, of, of my life. Now I'm asking for it. Obviously, you mentioned that something to somebody that does that outreach go to them? Is it a case of will your office for those specific, maybe mature a different sort of approach to mentioned going into K-12 those sort of fairs. Do you do something similar with

Speaker 3: 41:14

Yeah. So not to the extent that And I think that, you know, I really do think that when we talk about underserved populations, obviously there are many more underserved populations. But when it comes specifically to non-trad adult learners, they're a huge, underserved resource, like so many of our services, not just here at my college, but in higher ed in general, are tailored to students coming straight out of high school. Like I think about careers, at the college level, like if help with your resume or to get there's not a ton in a career I have a forty year history. I know how to interview. I know how to do this. What else can you do for me? Right. Like there. And I again, I don't know what definitely can see that those affairs as a whole. Um, what I can say for a big thing that I do for spaces like our vocational is a space for people who are support, you know, especially if VRS, I mean, VRS works with is an adult. Um, but specifically, like if where you were in a car accident lost your paralyzed and your, like, oh, I'm an accountant. Like I do computers all day and Like, what do I do now? They can help with like that Um, I have a ton of resources Our career force, which is another like specifically here in Minnesota, I can't speak for anywhere else, but specifically here in Minnesota, our career force and our VOC rehab go kind of hand in hand where our career force helps people, not necessarily disability specific, find work. Um, and those are places that I I do kind of like a big not as often as I should, but point to do of just saying, hey, student who like has a dream to these concerns, this is a And here's what it looks like. And here's how we do this. And we give all of those And I give them this, this, I'm through twelve versus college. Because even though they are grown, right, and they're out of high school, sometimes their last experience with stuff is high school. And so even just as like a jumping off point as a reference point, I send that with them too. Because if again, if your last you're like, I don't know, I with college, sometimes that where one column has the high college can really be my area specifically, we have, goodwill that is like, um, like thrift shop that, um, they hire kind of do the restocking and a really great process where skills and they kind of have resource that they do to, um, I probably, but we've collaborated hey, if you have students who who work for you or people who have an interest in college, that connection point for them. I think another thing that, and I'll, I'll pause here after I say this, but I think another thing that matters a lot is your recruiters. Uh, our recruiters here are anything where I can walk up to have this transfer fair. Let's do this. Or, hey guys, goodwill is having an event and we need to show our face. So like, we're gonna go, you're You know, um, having recruiters like, again, these underserved recruiting office who sees the with disabilities being a part I think that we talk about like, every country, but I can speak the, the spending power of disabilities is massive. And it's a completely untapped market because people think of it as being such a burden, quote unquote. And again, I hate to put words know, that's kind of the vibe Um, and so when we talk to our recruiters and we talk to the people at goodwill, we talk to the rehab people and we talk to the adult learning spaces for students who are getting their geds right. And we pull all those spaces together and say, we want these students. These students are important, them the education and getting ableism and tapping into that not to bring this into market of my, my purview. But it, it makes such a And to feel wanted, right as, college that wants you, it makes That's something that I had a ago who told me. So yeah.

Speaker 5: 46:37

That's.

Speaker 2: 46:38

So valid. I, I didn't, I didn't know, like, we've got a, we've got a couple of, uh, of the team here at junior, which will always frequent a goodwill when we're over. Um, yeah, I didn't know that. So that's, that's super warming um, as well. Yeah, I think our, so the thrift store is there, but we call them charity shops. Yeah. Um, they do, they do very similar things over here as well. So it valuable, valuable life

Speaker 5: 47:05

Just yes.

Speaker 2: 47:06

Be in, be in that working place. We've got ten minutes left of Um, I. We, the purpose of the educate others, give other do to help better themselves or improve student success. So, um, if you were talking to someone who is just about to jump into the same position as yourself or just moving into working within the accessibility space, within higher ed, what are some of the things you would say to them to help them, perhaps professionally and to improve their experience in order to be able to better serve the students that they're serving?

Speaker 3: 47:50

That's a fantastic question, and that I'd love to be like.

Speaker 4: 47:56

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

Speaker 3: 47:57

I think that the most important I, you will have a lot of people your empathy is a weakness in much we do with the law and how No. Right. Um, kind of like I mentioned job to if someone's asking for I have to be the, you know, sorry, can't do that. Your empathy is strength and it is a strength that is your strongest strength. Um, when I say no, I don't ever look at a student and go, really? Like you're really asking me for have that empathy that I cling I hear that you what I'm hearing when you tell me that you feel like you need your test modified. What I am hearing when you say given the skills that or the show your knowledge to what you You, as a student, when you come to me and you say, I need my test modified, one of the first questions I ask after that is like, how do you feel about the content? Ninety percent of time students will say, well, I know the information, but I am bad at test taking. I struggle with time. I, you know, I need help reading Right? And so then I lean into that empathy and I say things like, wow, so it doesn't sound like you would need a content support at all. Right? Because that's how I say no And I can look at them and say, so you're fully able to do the work. And they go, well, yeah, yeah, And I'm like, yeah, I know that. I can hear that from what you're It sounds like to me, what you test read out loud. You don't need a modified, you And I'm sorry that that support hasn't been offered to you before. It sounds like that maybe would have been really helpful to you previously. It sounds like you just need It sounds like, you know, it sounds like you've never been taught testing strategies before, which I was never taught testing strategies when I was in high school. I had to seek that out in And so here's how you can do Get those testing strategies. Now that you have your test actually sits you down and right, I think you're going to And if not, please know that you It is so easy to get jaded and of people going, wow, Avery

Speaker 4: 50:52

Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam

Speaker 3: 50:54

But I would say that having, you having sorry, I'm kind of But practicing radical empathy the space you want to be in. and as a disabled person, the space I want to be in is where I am told by the people who have power over me like that I am capable. Especially when I'm asking for because it's coming from a place Or when faculty come in and they say, Avery, what in the hell is this? Like, I have this accommodation And they are coming at me. Not in a space. I mean, it, it feels like space of Avery. You're dumb. Right. But it's coming from a space of. You're giving me this I don't know what to do with it. I care about my students. I'm. I care about my subject. I don't want my students to not I don't want my subject to be, pieces that don't make sense. This matters to me. And the minute that and this So please understand that I am perfection where I will get. You can ask my my people in my man, this person came in. And that was really hard for me, And it really made me feel But when I take a minute and I with curiosity of what is your Like walk me through that. Or what I'm hearing right now is And I don't want that. Like, I don't want you to be Can we figure out a way to do Is it one hundred percent No. But if I was talking to someone who was brand new in my field, hold on to your radical empathy like it's a life preserver because it will change how people perceive you, and it will make you feel so much better. At the end of the day.

Speaker 1: 52:54

That's a really great thing to I think in a world that's changed so quickly over the last few years from from Covid onwards, I think being able to be appreciative of, of Differing perspectives, but also ways of ways of working, ways of seeing the world. Um, is, is a, is a fantastic place to start in, in whatever sector of job you're in, whether that is in higher education, in disability services, whether that's in student success, senior leadership, wherever that might be. I think that's a really, really Thank you for that, Avery. And thank you for, for being I've, I've really, really It's been, it's been really more about how we can empower to college from so many different life experiences. And some of the things that, collective to, to support them. So yeah, thank you very much. Um, and yeah.

Speaker 3: 53:58

Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1: 53:59

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 54:01

Thank you very much. Loved it. Been been been an incredible

Speaker: 54:07

And that's a wrap. Thank you so much for joining us We hope you found the conversation valuable and that you gave you some ideas for how you can elevate your own student experience. Don't forget to hit that get your podcasts so you never Until next time, have an amazing