Learning Outcomes Leaders 007 | Denise Henry

Welcome to Learning Outcomes Leaders.

In this episode, we chat with Denise Henry, Director at the Center for Teaching, Learning and Leadership from Colorado State University, Pueblo, about her incredible journey from high school dropout to math education expert, fuelled by a single teacher who shifted her mindset.

We discussed why technology should be an accelerator rather than a shiny object, and how tools like Notebook LM are future proofing student skills. 

Let's get into the episode.

Transcript

Speaker: 0:02

Hello and welcome to Learning Outcomes Leaders, brought to you by Genio. I'm James and I'm Scott. And in this podcast, you'll hear professionals who can talk the there and done it. We'll discuss some of their projects, and explore the most helped to improve and elevate In this episode, we chat with Learning and Leadership from about her incredible journey math education expert, fueled by her mindset. We discussed why technology should be an object, and how tools like skills. Want to find out more. Let's get into the episode.

Speaker 1: 0:52

Um, so if you want to go ahead and start what are you doing now? Where are you at? And how did you get there?

Speaker 3: 0:59

Okay. Great. Great. Okay. So, Director for the Center of Leadership at Colorado State It's a regional comprehensive Um, rural, uh, rural area. Um. Many first generation We are also, um, up until designated as a minority serving designation has gone away. We are still designated as a We were the first Purple Heart Uh, I don't know exactly how to say this, and I should look it up, but it's, um, we're designated as a Purple Heart institution. Um, it's a, it's a designation Um, it's an award that they Um, so we have a large number of There's a large military Um. Yeah. And so we're, we're a small and four thousand in-person of students online in another Um, nursing program is really Uh, we have a lot of, um, health Um, yeah. So it's just, it's a nice little I've been here about five years and my son and my step kid go to school here. They're both in the Pre-nursing Um, I also, uh, let's see, what So as a small institution, you So lots of committees that need So I also work with the learning That was my first job here. Um, I was the administrator for And then, um, when Covid hit, the teaching and learning side of did the job that I wanted

Speaker 1: 3:24

So, so, so what got you in? What got you into working in

Speaker 3: 3:30

Um. So I was, uh, I was probably what would be labeled as an at risk youth. Um, myself. Uh, I grew up in, um, an Uh, um, didn't really go to Um, I just didn't show up. Um, but Gen-X kids had a different educational experience. They just kind of passed us No matter how we did. Um, and so I graduated high school, um, and it's kind of kicked around, lived at the beach, um, just hung out mostly, uh, not really doing much with my life. And then I had a pretty extreme me start questioning just like, How does society actually support people to go from being a kid to being a functioning adult? And if you don't have anyone at guiding you, how is that And it wasn't happening for me, brothers and sisters. And it just made me think about And so I decided I wanted to work with youth that needed extra support. I wasn't sure if I wanted to be a social worker or a psychologist. Um, in the, I didn't know if I wanted to be in the juvenile justice system or a teacher, but I just knew I wanted to work with kids. So, um, I was, I went down to took the placement test. And that was literally the first variable in my life. And, um, I was like, well, this Um, I'm, I did well on the like to read, you know, so I was wasn't walking around doing much So, um, I went to community the first few years. It was a real struggle to learn. Um, I had varying amounts of support from the educators there. Um, and then, um, I finally got earn credit, um, for mathematics is Dean Moore and he is the only remember in my entire life. And he was amazing. He was like, look, Denise, you You are just really far behind. So this is going to be hard, but He took me to the tutoring He would let me come into his office and rework tests and ask him questions. And he really just cheerleaded And I made an A in his algebra class, and I was like, oh, I can do this. And someone really smart believes in me that I can do this. And so that experience changed my entire learning trajectory for college. So I finished community college, got my A.A. degree in the States. If you go to a state community college, you're automatically accepted into the state university. So I was automatically accepted over there, still didn't know exactly what I wanted to study, and I was fortunate enough to be given the chance to do, um, kind of a, a liberal studies choose your own pathway kind of degree program. I had to do a couple of required together my entire degree um, one professor throughout And so I studied juvenile psychology, behavioral kept on with the math because I Um, and then when I got out of college, I had this liberal studies degree. I didn't know what I was going Um, uh, and so I got a job in a working as a teacher's assistant And I was like, oh, it was It was social support. It hit all the buttons with the And those were the, um, the schools and the educational settings I sought out for many years. So I would, I worked on, um, a mental health residential treatment campuses. I worked in regular schools in for kids who have not been getting through class. And, um, I think that. Coming from a place where me, it was hard to learn. Um, I didn't believe in myself. I didn't, I didn't consider Um, uh, it gave me a different were feeling the same way. And, uh, long, long before Carol Dweck published on, um, growth mindset, you know, I figured out, uh, the first thing you have to do is help someone believe in themselves and, you know, find their superpower and understand that, um, they're not stupid. They're just really far behind. And, um, that's also how I fell Um, in the early two thousand, teaching, there became a big quantifying learning and, you they weren't showing progress uh, interventions for children. Um, I would teach classes where if a student hadn't performed at the right level on their state test the previous year, instead of getting PE, they got an extra math class. Well, that's the worst thing you is not let him run around and a Oh, you're terrible at this. Let's just give you more and ram And so it was just, it was And so, uh, I very quickly shifted away from traditional sit and git kind of teaching that was transactional and felt more like it was done to students. I worked on, uh, building a be because they knew they were um, where the learning would would happen too. And, you know, a lot of times kids were in communities where they just, you know, it wasn't even safe to go outside after school. So they're in their social time They didn't have athletics, you things like that. So, um, oh, I did crazy things like created a classroom economy and printed out little Denise dollars. And students, uh, basically ran own little ecosystem there. So they, uh, every student had a The class would run itself. I'd teach the lesson a little uh, distributors and collectors. They, um, they took attendance, but they took, you know, so they running this learning community And, um, uh, you know, through activities like that and through playing with math more than just doing math, uh, engaging in project based learning, um, and personalized learning using technology. Uh, they were able to make really good progress, um, in their learning. And most of it was getting over could do it. Um, and then feeling comfortable

Speaker 2: 12:08

I, I found something like that when actually getting involved that always found maths hard, just always told by my teachers Um, and because I wasn't getting harder, that sort of thing. And I remember having a teacher come in one day and we learnt vectors through doing a dance to Snoop Dogg's Drop It Like It's hot.

Speaker 3: 12:34

Oh, I love it.

Speaker 2: 12:35

Like the most random hour of my life where I didn't stop laughing. But I performed the best on that high school exam, because in a line, staring at a piece of to swallow me up. Um, so I think you sort of I think is, is, is important. And I think me and Scott have had this as well, where being able to come from a position when you're teaching or talking about something from a lived experience. So talking to a student and saying, well, in our case, when we're talking with students with, um, accessibility barriers, for me, I can say as a student that had note taking needs or Scott saying, you know, something, something about sort of as a student that had dyslexia, these are barriers and I understand it, those students really assimilate to that a lot easier. And for yourself, being able to background and going into different background can really Did you find that that students were able to, um, to sort of assimilate more to you and your experiences? Is that something that you as part of the.

Speaker 3: 13:41

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:41

That support and things. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 13:43

Mhm, mhm. I did, I did let them know. And, uh, I always suspected that with my brain with like the way But it wasn't until I started teaching math that I realized I was dyslexic. And so that was a lot of fun as So I'd have to be really, really careful, but I'd also make mistakes and my students would help me. Hey, Miss Henry, you have the I don't think that looks right, And so that it was it's it's creating an atmosphere where we are humans coming together to learn together. I'm learning. You're learning. Uh, it's it's not this top down done to you. It's, we're here, uh, to the whole world. Um, you know, kids don't don't the real world unless we do them to the way mathematics is not the thing. So, you know, I'd help teachers learning with five six year olds playground, they're using mathematics in a way. They're like, oh, this is math. Um, and, and so it's, it's that, that just forcing out, forcing students to sit in front of a textbook and grind out calculations that have been solved by thousands of other students already is not interesting. It's not interesting to me. It's not, you know, that's not And one of my favorite teaching classes to teach was high school geometry. Um, in a school where the investigations And it was Um, instead of just here So it was coming to them. And uh, we use technology there too, like geogebra and stuff to explore. Um, uh, but it was, it's helping Oh my gosh, the logic unit was They're like, this is math. Perspective drawing is math, you see that math is like, you know, It's running. It's everywhere. Well, I hate math, I hate math. Do you like money? Money is math. It's like, oh, I like money. So, um, you know, just tapping into students interest, knowing them, getting to know them and like. Genuinely enjoying people and, and learning and kids is so, so important. Um, back when I first started teaching in alternative education, uh, special ed kids were generally placed in my class. Schools didn't know what to do Um, they would, you know, they would if they weren't, um, experienced severe enough difficulties to be placed in a separate school. They were just kind of like, well, do we, do we just keep them in one room all day over here? Do we put them in different Do we send people in? Do we send them out? Like it took school. It takes schools like, uh, and, class in about five or six that system right now. You know what's currently like people just weren't sure learned a little bit differently were just different. But I don't think there's anything, I don't think there's such a thing as a typical normal student. We are all different people in Um, and being able to your students, tap into that, about them is their superpower. Really cheerlead that and help so, so important. Um, when kids grow up feeling there's something wrong with me. And oh, my brain's a little broken and you know, it just those things carry on throughout someone's life. I ask adults, um, if they can that ever happened to them. School, in school. And if they can remember the remember the worst experience. And those, you know, because that emotion and learning Center is so close to each other in our brain. Um, there's, there's so much and we as educators can, can Um, for kids.

Speaker 1: 18:50

Excellent. I, I, I, I resonate a lot when, um, when I was in school, uh, so having dyslexia like English or literature classes for me were like incredibly difficult. Um, and I was always like in the Um, yeah. And, uh, but I went to, I went to university and did a film degree and now I like fully understand story structure analysis, like character development, like character, uh, characterizations and everything, everything you would need, you would do in a literature class, but just for a different format. So like fully, fully appreciate and just finding that thing And so we've we've spoken a bit over email and I know that you've got like, um, you're really interested in talking about, I'm really interested also in talking about this future proofing student learning, um, that you're working on. So can you give us a little bit, like what it is, um, top level deeper into it.

Speaker 4: 19:53

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 19:54

So, um, just to touch back on the way you've learned important that learning, embedded in things that interest I learned history through art I was never history never The memorizing, the, you know, all of that stuff did not click with me. But when I got to community college and took an art history class, I was I love art, and I was like, oh, and just seeing the iconography and the way that the the times were reflected in the paintings and the sculptures. It all just made so much sense So I think that that is that's what you said is really so, so important. And when we chop learning up into discreet little packages, this is. And the states, we do it worse This is algebra one. This is algebra two. You can't do calculus because So we're going to do a What other subjects has a pre do Do you you know so it's just Um so yes. Um okay. So future proofing learning. Um, so I taught, I started two thousand of my own and uh, into schools and, uh, people Not going to learn anymore. They're just going to cheat. They're just going to type in this magic box. It's going to give them the Teachers would have one or two computers in the back of their room, but they'd never turn them on. Um, uh, at that time, I was differentiating, learning and trying to do personalized learning with worksheets in a crate for about two hundred kids a day. And so we would do project based And then we would have a couple days a week where we'd also work on just individual skill building. So that I could tailor needed instead of just throwing everyone, then maybe hitting So, um, and that was more engaging and motivating for them because they were working on what they needed to work on themselves. So they felt, you know, that Um, and these are students that, you know, marginalized students typically don't have a lot of control over their lives and things that happen in their lives. No. Most kids don't have a lot giving them a sense of control learning pathways and being They were tracking their Um, so it hit a lot of just like don't know, socio emotional So then, um, one of my hey, we've got this software some math problems. And, um, it'll give you some data, some reporting, and you can use that instead of that whole crate full of worksheets over there. So I was like, yes, so let's try And so that, that got me onto like a tool to help me, um, Um. So then we would play some I, I had physical math games and coming out, but most of them Um, like a reward for doing the I, there was this clicker program that had just come out called quiz. Um, they got me a set of those, um, and I was able to program in my own math questions and the, the, uh, the correctness of their math question responses, the, the correctness of their responses advancing through the game. So what it was directly tied to Um, you know, it wasn't as that's out now, but it was So and I had seventh graders trying to skip other classes on Fridays to come to my remedial math class to play math games because they heard it was fun in there. That's when I knew I was winning I was like, this is what we This. This is what we want. We want students to be here. So, um, I just kind of kept I used it, um, organizationally, you know, like some tech nerd, anything like that. I just had a kind of a perspective of it's a tool, but it's not the focus of what I'm doing. There was a lot of other things Um, and then so that was, that was my first disruption I experienced with technology in education. We got through that. People stopped panicking. Um, the internet didn't break We're still learning. And then when I was teaching high school, Photomath app came out the apps that you could scan an equation and it could be a handwritten equation or a typed equation. It would step it out for you and And people were freaking out, oh my God, they're never going to solve another equation, whatever. And I was like, well, what if we had them solve the equation or try to get as far as they can in the problem and then scan it and see if the the app came up with something different than they did. Let's, let's have them do some Am I solving steps or are they Where did they. How was it being stepped out? There's so much like rich modeling there that could happen. So that felt like another disruption wasn't as big as the internet, but that was another disruption. Uh, phones becoming ubiquitous Now they have access to solutions, uh, solvers, all this different stuff in their pocket, um, Immediately. So, um, and then one to ones came out in classes, we started issuing computers and now kids as young as like third grade kindergarten, they're working in a one to one environment every day. Uh, students come into college They have now been in pretty much working in an LMS. They can go online, they can see their grades are, um, Uh, so they're, they're using technology in much more sophisticated, sophisticated ways than many of us as current educators used it when we were kids. So, um, I think that that creates kind of a sense of discomfort and, um, uh, makes it hard to, to know sometimes How much technology do I bring into my class? Uh. Am I chasing shiny, shiny technology into my class? Because it looks cool, looks aligned to a learning objective How does it, how is it, um, an versus just the thing we want to And there's space for that too, chase shiny things and lose Um, I did my master's degree in, University with, um, in a first time it ran, it was for It was about Two thousand and It was complete distance big back then. Um, I think we were on Adobe online synchronous meetings. So that tells you how old it is. We did, we did a class on Second And that was the new thing back So that tells you how old that That was before it got really It was already weird, but it Um, but people were trying to starting to do some cool stuff with, you know, technology back then. Like there were Harvard had a stuff like that. So, um, so that program was uh, founded in California, the using educators organization. He was the first person to bring technology into school or like not bring it into school, but like, um, proposed that technology is useful as a learning tool. Here's ways we can use it as a learning tool, but not make it the focus of learning that kind of thing. So in the course of that them, uh, it really consolidated a tool that you use at the right You know, um, there's many ways communication and for learning. And those are all kind of twenty first century skills. You know, the four C's that we were talking about in the early two thousand. Um, and then so, so that was a really rich experience that helped me consolidate that perspective. And when the United States tried for math and language arts with were brought back and Uh, we had a set of content standards now, and we also had math practice standards, which for the first time ever, we were thinking about the dispositions of mathematicians of mathematically proficient people. They were the same eight practice standards across all grades, but they were they looked different for a five year old than a fifteen year old, because your thinking is different. But they were the same habits of So all that got mushed together teaching is good teaching. Good learning is good learning. There are enduring skills, knowledge, and dispositions that we need to be, um, successful, functional, uh, productive, uh, in our careers outside of college. That technology cannot replace things that we as humans can do. It can help us do some of those Um, but it can't replace our It, it can communicate with conversations with LMS and, you But if you use LMS frequently, giving you something that's been Um, you can, you can tell when it's a genuine human creation of art versus an AI video or painting. There's something just a little So there's these future proof Um, when I talk with faculty, I. what is learning. What does it mean to learn? What does it mean to learn? What does it look like? And is it a process or is it a If we come out learning is a product, then absolutely computer can do everything for us. It's great at spitting out That's what it's designed to do. We just become, you know, uh, just feeds it information to Here it is. We're done. Move on. Or is it a process which I that learning, that learning happens And by the time you get to the Yes. Well done. We push through that thing and then you look around for the next challenge. And then you continue learning The process pieces are what Or we can allow them to And it's all in the way that we

Speaker 2: 33:29

That's something. Sorry, I was just going to say

Speaker 5: 33:31

Go.

Speaker 2: 33:32

Yeah, completely. Um, agree with. We, we often talk about this idea of learning being a process rather than, rather than an event. I think back to, you know, as a know sometimes you're not really for one class and someone to You wouldn't then memorize those and be able to do it in an exam. You have to have been in the information, taking it down, um, ways, applying it to something. And so.

Speaker 5: 34:04

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:05

When we've looked at, you know, said, it's, it's very easy to Give me this and it can make It can do anything for you now, but actually, as a student, that isn't going to be something that is productive, like you said, right? It's, it's the actual saying to, it, I'm studying this topic. Give me some, give me some might I need to learn? Or what are the extra readings know, find me those so I can go information and reframing those and sort of going through that. So yeah, I think, I think not using it as just a absolutely at the forefront. And you've talked a lot about what, what are the challenges to, um, trying to reframe what Um, when you've had then I guess also with with challenges that you've seen?

Speaker 3: 35:14

Um, at university? Uh, it's a bit different than University faculty, uh, spend a deeply about certain topics. Um, but few are ever, uh, given about how to facilitate learning And, um, so we have teaching methods perpetuated, um, or, um, I see a lot of K12 methods repackaged, um, and proposed towards higher education faculty with a little bit different language. Um, uh, but a lot of it is, is, you know, very, very similar, almost identical. Um. But they're kind of left on their own in a lot of cases to figure out how to implement those things. Um, classroom observations higher ed like they are in K12. Like we would, you know, we'd go to each other's classes, we'd meet together frequently at least once a month, you know, in some of our schools and more often than that, because we're having lots of hallway conversations about, you know, things that are happening in our classes and looking at at students work. And how did you approach this Oh, that's a good idea. You know, like that kind of collaborative thing at university. There's so many demands on faculty, even though they spend at my school, at this regional comprehensive, they spend a lot of time teaching classes marking student work. Talking with students, they don't get that same amount of time to cultivate their own teaching toolkit. And, and, um, so it's. It's a, it's a different, um. It's a different way of approaching teaching and learning. Um. Some faculty do not want to They do not believe that that is the best way for their students to learn and engage with the content. Uh, that is absolutely valid. Absolutely. In those instances, um, we can literacy, which is going to be, every aspect of every job is technology in it, some more than some piece of technology. So we need to attend to building But that can that doesn't mean That also means understanding that's that discrimination piece. Why are we not using it? Why is this not the best way? What does technology take away from the learning in this instance? Or what does technology do to enhance our learning in this instance? And so, um, technical literacy Um, because we're all, you know, students are learning to discriminate those instances when they need to pull out their phone and use an LLM or when they don't. Um, when it's okay to just write an off the cuff email to someone or when you need to maybe write it and then ask, um, an lim to refine your language or, um, check it for tone or something like that. If you're upset or, um, you know, there's ways to leverage it. Um. So for me, I want to make sure that I send the most prepared students out into the world, just like with my kid, you know, told them the whole time growing up, by the time you're eighteen, I want you to be able to take care of yourself. I want you to be around me me, but I don't want you to be So I don't want to make students don't want them to be ignorant Um, so there's, you know, from the learning side, from the teaching side, there are so many ways that I can enhance teaching. Um, especially with like, uh, Oh my gosh, I've been on that day it came out. I just stumbled on it and it's Uh, for universal design, for learning, you know, aspects and multiple means of representation. Uh, it takes a very long time to pictorial, you know, video, But I can use technology to do that very quickly so I can enhance learning using tools like that. So as a teacher, I can, um, I preferences or what they have Um, uh, by getting content to listen to it while they're watch a quick video or, or they those things and see how they learning in different ways. You know, so they're taking in

Speaker 1: 41:15

So can, can I, can I ask when. So talking about Notebook LM a lot of value in it, especially To be able to, like you said, be into, into a notebook and then to produce material basically Are you, are you discussing that And oh yeah, what, what, what's Like, do they, are they engaged What's, what's going on there.

Speaker 4: 41:46

For about the last two or three.

Speaker 3: 41:48

Years? So I, um. In, in my life outside of school, I am, uh, I've been doing, uh, jiu jitsu and judo for a really long time and I coach. And so about three years ago, I wanted to learn more about coaching science. I had never formally studied And so I started getting papers And there's some beautiful work Oh my gosh, uh, I was a whole I could talk to you all. You guys should talk to some of They're amazing because they're it's, uh, built on ecological, Oh. It's beautiful. Um, so, um, I wanted to learn more and I had no, no background. I didn't know the, the lingo. I didn't know the jargon. I just, I really didn't have a going to learn it just on my own LM and it was when they were So the the Google developers Google meets with university faculty and students and staff from all over the world, and they would meet and meet up and like, hey, it'd be cool if it did this. And what about that? And they've got a discord that's still super active with people sharing use cases and ideas with them. And, um, they just continue to evolve that it's, it's evolved so much over the last three years. So after about a year of using it and seeing the value for myself as a learner, um, I started going out to classes and doing guest lessons for students about how to use it as a learning tool, how to use it as a reading tutor and a writing tutor. Um, but I start with, we start out talking about, um, willful ignorance and intellectual laziness, and we think about someone we know who is just intellectually lazy. They hear a sound bite, they basis for it. You know they're wrong. They probably know they're wrong, but they're going to die on that hill because they're just going to say this thing like, we don't want to be that person. You got up and came here today So let's use technology to help to, you know, the like technical not something that high school They they are not reading papers Um, so they, they don't have You know, they don't have the practice to access the reading, you know, the content in a lot of cases. So if, if someone can't access the material, they can't learn it and it's just going to frustrate them. It's a barrier. Um, so opening access is huge So I'm like, okay, so let's find So first thing I want you to do. So I start my lesson with I get a piece of content from the instructors class because I want the instructor to see the students physically reading this and how long it takes to get through a small portion of it, a small portion of the assigned reading. So they're like, because I don't long does it really take them to So I'll just have them read like the first page, bring it out hard copy or give them a digital copy. They read it and then they write touch technology at all. Read this thing. Right. And I just do a quick write, you know, punctuation doesn't matter. Spelling doesn't matter. Uh, just brain dump. What did you take away from What are the big, you know, the little reading passage. It takes them a lot longer to It probably takes them three read, then we expect them that And they're like actually I see them actively reading, you know, circling, underlining, whatever. So then I have them, uh, I show them how to upload that white paper to a notebook and how to either they either type in, type it in, uh, what they just wrote, or they copy and paste it and then have Notebook LM critique their writing. So we talk about how to prompt So we want to know, um, is my grammar, spelling and, uh, flow correct? You know, if, if so, do I have, you know, the key things spelled correctly? Um, and then am I factually Does what I wrote match what the source document says about this information? And like that they have all of can go back to that reading. And now that process piece of now their brain is firing, right? Their brain, their brain was firing before, but now it's really firing because they're like analyzing what the Notebook gave them against what they And now comparing those two things what I thought it said. Here's what this thing is telling me. said this thing had notebook know, it's checking my source to my source. So I can click on the little, uh, will pop up and I can just focus relates to what it's talking it's very targeted as well. oh, I thought this meant that, was on the right track, you so that's, that's when their brains really start lighting up. That's the process piece that I care what I care about. If you got it. If you nailed it the first time you you already knew how to do. The more mistakes you make, the more learning is happening and the more you're critically So when when people are saying, oh, thinking, maybe depends on how can write a good prompt that got to refine that prompt. It doesn't give you back what you that because the machine is dumb or hallucinating or, you know, whatever? Or is that because your question it would give you what you were about, you wanted it. So, um, so, you know, that's my So I did those kinds of lessons then I started the doctoral here on campus for educational leadership. And so now I am using Notebook LM as a student in my own classes, and I'm reading large numbers of papers and writing a lot about them and having to them and get through this information. So, um, being a busy person, um, I will create podcasts and ask, know, very targeted questions and have it do analysis across papers about certain things. And then I listen to those on my so I'm, I'm engaging with the reading the papers, I'm writing I'm living the learning, if that I'm, it's just, it's just there, that I can connect. Um, and so I show students that show them how to use an app connects with our university the paper is not open source, most of the time. So how to find papers and then how to understand what you're Make those connections, apply them to the work that you're doing. And, um, uh, students, students stop like, hey, I've been using that really love it. And, um, that's exciting. Uh, some faculty whose classes I've hey, I'm using it for a lit um, you know, I'm struggling with this piece or, you know, like that, just like them, how they're using it and, uh, that they're engaging with the technology themselves. That's how we become better that takes time and that takes we can't expect everyone to have that time and that interest. So student experiences, um, from that I've done for some, for it can feel like going to a times a week. I go over here, there's one set of go over here an hour later, over here two days later, then I'm going back to this where am I and what am I um, uh, that's a challenge. So just understanding that students are navigating that space, I'm not saying we change it. I'm not saying that, you know, they That what you know, we all teaching is inherently individual. We're all going to do things our own way we think is should be done. understanding that that's the us be more empathetic when we this maybe not nefarious? Yeah. So my question with cheating is my made you feel like you needed to know, what's going on? It's a more of a, like a trauma teaching perspective, a trauma informed practice of, uh, not, you know, looking at what you did, but more like what, what's the reason behind what you did? Was it poor time management? Do you not know how to manage time? someone in your family get sick? Are you just really so are you hard and so insecure about your up had this machine write it you could do anything of quality know what, what can I do as an own work? If it repeats, then we deal with but coming at it. In a more like human way, because this process of learning.

Speaker 2: 53:29

I think that's super important. I think having that, being on and welcoming with that, with whether that be something like whatever that might be. And you know how that manifests I think it's something that I industry, we're definitely When I even think back to when I was I was at school and things like that, um, I think it's super important. And particularly when we look at AI have creating those positive use cases, those creating the, the message for students and faculty of, of how this can be of a benefit, but also some of the risks and things that can be associated. I think as we sort of start to, to wrap up, um, this episode and it's been really, really interesting to get, get all your experiences. Um, if we could boil it down to or piece of advice that you've higher education when it comes this next barrier, this next what would that be?

Speaker 3: 54:42

Kind of a combo tip. So the first part of it is, um, this may be the first major disruption you've experienced in education, but it will not be the last. So keeping that perspective will help you remain a little bit calmer. This won't be the last one, Right now education is very much Um. The second thing is for higher education, connect with industry partners, connect with people outside the campus and find out how we're writing charters, artists, musicians, engineers, nurses, uh, athletic trainers, electricians, construction managers. How are people in the industries of your discipline using technology now? What changes are they seeing? What do they expect from And then bring that back and your students are going. That is our job in higher ed. We Even if the career is pursuing a doctorate degree somewhere and going into education yourself, how is. How are these technologies being I feel like a. I failed at at my If they get to a job interview for that interview that involves allowed to use it in college. So yeah. We, our students are on a They have. We. when we introduce Common would show teachers was a girl She was like fresh out of out of And she's just like this And the interviewer is asking And her only response was, I most multiple choice tests, C is And so she was prepared for a She didn't know the answer, so Like to me, that's kind of like if we don't connect every day experiences, every day, communication, collaboration, critical thinking. Um. With the students experience, technological non-technological. Um, they're not going to be experiences in life and career. out. After graduation.

Speaker 1: 57:40

I think. I think that's such a valuable tip for a lot of institutions to hear as like, especially when, you know, when you look at like community colleges as well, who are like work very, very close with the, the working world around them. And they're effectively working world within that conversations and go, what do Right? What is important when it comes to technology, especially around AI? So awesome. Like, just like James said, this has been super insightful, really, really lovely chat and I hope you've had a good time as well.

Speaker 3: 58:20

Yeah, no, I love talking about You guys are lovely people. So thank you.

Speaker 1: 58:25

Amazing. Well, we'll we'll end it there. But thank you very much for, for Um, and I hope you have a great

Speaker 3: 58:33

You too. Thank you for the opportunity.

Speaker 2: 58:35

Thanks so much. Bye.

Speaker: 58:40

And that's a wrap. Thank you so much for joining us We hope you found the conversation valuable and that you gave you some ideas for how you can elevate your own student experience. Don't forget to hit that get your podcasts so you never Until next time, have an amazing