Learning Outcomes Leaders

Learning Outcomes Leaders 006 | Dr John Bader

• Genio • Season 1 • Episode 6

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 52:19

Welcome to Learning Outcomes Leaders.

In this episode, we sit down with Doctor John Bader, author of Dean's List - Eleven Habits of Highly Successful College Students to unpack the essential habits of highly successful college students.

We dive into the evolving dynamics of a student parent relationship and share strategies for managing the tricky transition into higher education.

Let's get straight into the episode.

Speaker:

Hello and welcome to Learning Brought to you by Genio. I'm James and I'm Scott. And on this podcast, you'll hear professionals who can talk the there and done it. We'll discuss some of their projects, and explore the most helped to improve and elevate In this episode, we sit down with Doctor John Bader, author of Dean's List eleven Habits of Highly Successful College Students to unpack the Essential habits of highly Successful college students. We dive into the evolving dynamics of a student parent relationship and share strategies for managing the tricky transition into higher education. Want to find out more. Let's get straight into the

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely. So thank you very much John Really, really appreciate it. Um, for, for those listening, Student Success US conference in now and had some fantastic experience in higher education, released by John. So really excited to have you Um, I guess to kick things off, your origin story. Tell us what got you into education, why you're here today, and maybe a formative education experience that you had. Um, so.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 4:

James, thank you so much. And Scott too, I'm, I'm delighted to be with all of you today and to chat about, uh, all the strategies around student success. But to your question, um, my funny, uh, twist to it. And that involves a movie. So when I was in college, not to date myself too much, the film Gandhi came out and as I was watching that film, I realized that I knew nothing about this guy. I had had a reasonable here in the US. I was at that time a student at So, you know, that came with all the self-confidence and arrogance that that that comes with. Um, and I'm looking at the anything about this. Uh, and shocked that I did not. And so I used the better part of at Yale to learn more about And then I applied for a Um, which I did. Uh, and though I had spent time, French, I decided not to go to India, which was the singular experience of my life. Um, intensely. are challenging personally and I learned so much. It was. It was fantastic. And from that I was inspired, missions throughout my career. Um, some having to do with I was very much involved with recently as head of their alumni importance of study abroad, at Johns Hopkins. The critical importance of an exploratory approach to higher education. That is to say, you need to put You need to be open to surprise You need to take risks. Intellectual and personal in the real you and discover the you think you know, because Uh. And the world has so much to So that that film and all that followed, uh, uh, sort of commanded my attention and, and my efforts to help students see those opportunities. And when they struggle to help them get through it.

Speaker 2:

I first of all, actually a We, um, when me and Scott were in Atlanta, we went to Coca-Cola world. And in Coca-Cola world is the um, just around the corner. And we were like.

Speaker 3:

That's a, that's a funny thing

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Why, why is it there? There was no explanation as to There was.

Speaker 3:

No.

Speaker 2:

Anything on it. We just sort of stood there and went, huh, well, that's random and cool. It's funny that you you

Speaker 3:

It is a funny coincidence.

Speaker 2:

We. So I, I personally studied Um, I, I did my year abroad and I've been a huge advocate, experience, what that taught me, friendship group all of a sudden little town in England to all of twenty five different countries. Um, and those, those experiences that you have are transformative. I met my wife out there and I've always been a huge, huge proponent, um, of, of that I'd be sort of curious to sort of understand a little bit about the work that you've, you've done on sort of those sort of exchange programs and things like that. How, what has that work involved

Speaker 4:

Well, there are a couple of are challenges and, and those opportunities, uh, for any And you have to kind of work your way through those obstacles. Financial, for example, many expensive it is to study abroad. Uh, even though in the US, uh, you even if you take a semester Um, but there are a lot of sending students overseas. Family dynamics are really important to educational success. And so if your parents or your guardian is not really enthusiastic about you spending time overseas, that can be a challenge. Faculty can be very possessive about the education they're offering. In other words, if you're, uh. Let's say you're a faculty Um, maybe that's not a fair example, because Amherst does a great job in promoting study abroad. But just as an example, you education you're going to get is We know what the quality is of the programming that we offer ourselves. Who knows what you're going to what you're going to see if you go to Germany, say in your case, James. Um, so overcoming some of those arguments and, and convincing folks that that's worthwhile, really important. That also varies by the kind of student or the kind of person you are. First generation students tend to be wary, especially wary of doing this. Students in the sciences, especially in engineering, find it can be difficult to to make room for that in their, uh, in their set of demands and requirements. So this this is the there there are lots of challenges, but but I think as you and I would agree that having moments that are surprising and unexpected as you would walk through towns in Germany. By the way, Germany is where my Wow. Um, if around every corner, there's something else that you weren't expecting. If the conversation you had and shopkeepers and whomever German perspective on life. Wow. Uh, you know, how how can you So, uh, lots to unpack there,

Speaker 1:

I so I never so I had a similar But I never, I never went, um, So I'm, I'm from a place, um, in It's a small working class, um, Um, my family, very working university but me. Right. I'm a first year graduate. When I proposed, but I want to They were not happy. Um, because we just didn't do Right. People around us just didn't do We stayed where we were, and we Um, there was a few arguments and we ended up, um, they ended up suggesting that I go somewhere close, go to a university close by so I could, um, still live at home and then travel. But my big reason for going to university was I wanted to get out. Um, so I wanted to experience some of those things and I wanted to get out of this, this, this city. And that was so important to me, like moving away and experiencing those different things. What's your like views on like, yes, traveling abroad, but what about interstate? Like going to a different state and, living and studying in a different state.

Speaker 4:

It's great you asked that we're seeing yet another example how family dynamics can affect to university, which university What do you study? What do you focus on? Uh, what's important to you? All of those are affected in you had growing up, right? So your values, your priorities And so acknowledging that that's The second is that as you do it, something to say about the We don't want you to go that far Um, we want you to be nearby. And yet it is natural for to need that separation. It's, it's, it's cultural. It's biological. You have to start your own life. So there's, there's always this, Um, and when it comes to either particular university or to sociology or history or Um, these are complicated decisions because they affect your success. They affect your whole attitude If, if, for example, your, your folks pressured you into being in an engineering program and you were just not good at calculus, well, that's things are not going to go all that well. You're going to either have to work harder to figure out calculus Or you're going to have to figure out some other thing to do, which might have a big problem both with your parents and for your own plans for what happens next. Uh, so all of these, uh, the such an interesting topic is of these factors, uh, that make Absolutely.

Speaker 3:

I.

Speaker 1:

It's funny you mentioned that So before, um, I, so I did film, um, at university, um, and before I did that, um, I did a painting and decorating, uh, course, um, to become a tradesman, be a painter decorator. Um, I lasted two weeks. It took me two weeks for me to I absolutely can't do this. But the reason why I chose to do me did that. That's what people did. Uh, so I went and did that. mean two weeks in? I was like, absolutely not. Luckily, I fell on my feet and into walked into a film course, Um, but yes, it's such a like It's the people around you have How do you, how do you navigate? How do you help students navigate that conversation with their parents? Um, or how do you help parents? How do you navigate that

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I appreciate that you're view because it's a, it's a bit sides of that conversation. Um, so in the Dean's List book, I have a chapter on the evolving relationship you have with parents. Uh, I a follow up, I wrote a Success, a kind of companion And, uh, uh, I'm, I'm working with clients on, on this very question. Um, to your, to your point side of things, what I'm trying kind of gentle transition that Uh, and those two words are both that it needs to be done with Uh, that your conversations with your dad over whether you should be taking film classes or not, those can get pretty fraught and angry if his perception is that the film industry is a bad idea or, you know, that's only that's, uh, that's only worthwhile if you blank, blank, blank. Um, and, uh, so being gentle you're effectively teaching your your you see in front of you, What is it that appeals to you? Um, so rather than getting defensive and saying, this is my choice, not yours, you know, that sort of angry tone to take it with more, uh, with more kindness. Um, the second is the, this importance of, of learning, which is the, both sides need to learn what that landscape is and what the opportunities are and the meaning of those opportunities. So let's say that I, I'm really college, both as a, to study and work or whatever it is. This is a bit related to your Um, your, your parents might not means or what professional On the parent side of things, other side of the same coin. A lot of coaching, a lot of, uh, figuring out what are good questions to ask in my parents guide. At the end of each chapter is a kitchen table, and it lists a could ask to students, um, you break or when they catch up by doing, uh, for example, and this Um, uh, are you seeing any of academically and what are they Now, that's a gentle way to Not everybody is succeeding. Not everybody is doing well. Sometimes things go wrong. You can get bad grades and These are all things that But you know how I framed that rather than are you struggling? Are you having any problems? The student can open that door But talking about and normalizing failure is, is a pretty good place to go in a conversation that's gentle and open.

Speaker 2:

That that gentle thing is really stuck out to me because I think it's these conversations that happen can be so transformative for the rest of us, not just the student themselves, life, but also that relationship with the parents. Because if it isn't done in the right way, those, um, those relationships can, can sometimes even end. I've, I've known friends of mine strained relationships with sorts of conversations where the family footsteps and become the family business. And it's it's seen as almost a And I know from my, my wife's therapist and part of the course talked about this parental parent can come into, um, into I'd never even thought of as of parental jealousy where child away from doing the big an element of, I wish I could Why? Why does my child get that And it's, it's such a multi-layered or it can be such a so many different experiences that a child can have from a pushy parent to one that doesn't want the child to do it for, for their own.

Speaker 3:

That's a really.

Speaker 4:

Interesting insight, James. And, uh, um, I would say too, themselves with what role they Uh, it's you don't you're not become a father or a mother. Um, and you're kind of making it Uh, in, in an early edition of the Dean's List book, I basically was telling parents to back off. That was kind of the main And it wasn't really until I had parents and became one myself. Did I realize that I was I was not only not being charitable or kind, but I also was being unrealistic. Um, that, uh, those kinds of, They've always been there. I mean, the human story is basically a series of conflicts between one generation and the next. Um, and what does it mean to to Um, a lot of, of course, most their love and concern for the Uh, making sure that they're that life for them will be all those things. But you're not exactly sure how So like, oh my God, like, ah, I'm, I'm freaking out because, uh, my son or my daughter is making decisions. I don't understand this. The future seems so unclear. Um, she's struggled with this issues that have worried me. Now they're somewhere. They're not living here. They're living somewhere else. A lot is going on that I don't Um, it's, uh, it's tough. So if we're a little more when these things happen and more kindness, uh, things tend

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely. And I, I think about my own experiences and I remember the first day I got to Germany, uh, my flight had been delayed, so I wasn't able to buy bedding. All the shops were closed by the I got to the student flat and I underneath a towel as a as a And I remember phoning my parents in, in tears being like, I think I've made a big mistake coming here and thinking about it now. Like what? What their reaction must have been having me in a different country and things like that must must have been incredibly tough. And we, we talk a lot in our We talk with a lot of different departments at universities that are so integral to student success, whether that be in accessibility services, where a student is coming into higher education, having had a parent be their advocate for the last eighteen years of their lives, potentially, um, or they're coming into student success and their parent again, has been that main advocate at the school, contacting the school and the teachers for, for that time. I wonder how you've talked a lot how we help the parents. Where does that support or sort of the questions come in for the higher education institution themselves, who then almost have to not take on the role of a parent, but also then push the parents away sometimes to give the student that that space in higher education to, to be their own advocate. How do you go about sort of balancing that transition from, from that high school into into education?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's, that's.

Speaker 4:

A good point on a couple levels. One is the, the concept of Um, there are a, a lot of Some of them, uh, The transition from high school or prep school secondary ed to higher ed. So many different variables are changing, not the least of which is the attitudes toward learning, uh, the role that faculty play significantly different from a high school to a college. Um, the transition out of college, of course, is, is probably even more profound as everybody is freaking out and not sure about what happens next or why. Uh, in the case of a lot of students, a liberal arts education is going to result in a career that, that has security and, and, and financial benefits. So there's a lot of that Um, I would say that, um, most Uh, well, I'll be more fair. Uh, all colleges are are deeply and successful outcomes. They have many reasons to do There's a moral imperative, an Of course. And then, frankly, there's a So if you don't do a good job lose that student. And then they're not paying And now you've got to find somebody else to pay for that tuition. Um, it is a cold, hard fact that a lot of higher Ed's, uh, struggles with retention questions, in large part for financial reasons. So if suddenly forty percent of disappears, um, what are you Um, it's, uh, it's also an that you've made to keep them So colleges and universities are Um, the challenge is the scope Well, the scope was exactly what I mean of this, that as students become more, uh, complicated, their needs become, um, more numerous and more, more challenging. It's hard to meet those needs. Um, I, I was a Dean at Johns advising and academic affairs. And since I've left, there has of advisors, professional Um, and that's Hopkins effort to, uh, to address these needs and especially the needs of an increasingly diverse student body that where you get a lot of first gen students, a lot of students who who may not be uniformly well prepared for the experience. So they're trying to help them, more staff to do that. That raises the, that raises the, the budget and the financial challenges. It kind of, it kind of goes Um, uh, but that, that feel for real commitment to ongoing struggle of over

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I well, what you've just section of the book, which is, understanding why, um, there's said I'm going to quote you from college students I have known struggle, uh, to pull out. They suffer from depression and other forms of mental illness, a powerful problem. This, this is like a really, failure and, um, how students heavily as soon as they hit determined on their GPA and what their grades are, rather are some of the preventative like come into play to help towards like what they put value know that failing doesn't just It means that you can work

Speaker 4:

Let's start that answer. A very good question with this So I don't know if you can see. You could see my book cover in But it says for college success, So that word is very Um, we're, we started this success, um, with the idea thing than failure, right? So we're not going to really put We're going to talk about Who wants to buy a book with the Um, and, uh, and so there's this what the experience is supposed is supposed to be. And, uh, and as, as another part causes the challenge of pursuing Instead of thinking about how have, how much you have learned. Everyone can learn and therefore If the difference between what what you knew then and what you Who cares about the about grades But as a practical matter, um, better to succeed than fail. And this goes to your, to your which is, um, trying to make it seem like it's okay as, sports figures and, and other history can comment on. You don't really learn from You. You learn from failure. Um, if you do something poorly, I gotta fix that. It's one of the reasons why I Engineers are taught not to be They're taught to learn from it. So wait a minute. This thing didn't work. Why didn't it work? Not that I'm a bad person, that building doesn't work. It's just that this is a Um, so I think one of the things at would be to say, look, it's, In fact, it would be really damn boring, uh, if all you did was, was succeed. Um, my final point here is that then there's real failure. So real failure might fall under the category of caused by serious challenges. Financial. Uh. Your your father loses his Um, you get fired from whatever Um, uh, uh, your family has mental health issues or you're now struggling with that yourself. This is where it's, it's not experience because it's just And that's where it's important that we normalize the need to get help, uh, and to admit when there's something you just can't, you just can't cope with by yourself. Um, and what that then becomes my last point, um, is a life lesson, right? So if you, if you go to college and you learn that your parents are human, your your friends make mistakes. You can fail, but you can be resilient and ask for help and grow and be stronger as a human being. Way to go. Um, that's that's a way to Uh, you may not have gotten all the grades you wanted, but you're now ready to be a a reasonable adult.

Speaker 1:

I, I completely agree. So, um, I have dyslexia and Um, whenever I write a message spelling mistakes than you've James knows exactly what knows Most people know exactly what I'm trying to say, so I don't even bother trying to correct them. Um, but I, I feel like mistakes Mistakes Uh, stuff like failures, mistakes, the things which make you a human, make you approachable, make you authentic. And you shouldn't shy away from You should embrace them. Learn from them, yes, but also that's a mistake. That's a failure that I've done owning it is so much more powerful than shying away from it. And I always believe that the most wise people have made lots of failures, have had lots of failures because they've learned from those failures and become wise. You can be successful by just time, from the first time. But you become wise by learning lots of failures. So that that whole section of

Speaker 3:

Yeah. And, and.

Speaker 4:

Just, and the fact is that, uh, Uh, it really is. And, uh, you've got to build up that resilience, that sense of self. That's the core of, of who you and, and the knowledge that, um, through that, right? Uh, a partner, a friend, a whatever it is. Um, and that's, uh, that's Um, and that makes it very for, for work.

Speaker 2:

I think that that idea of a failure, like you mentioned something that can be of outcomes as a, as a person or For example, I think I resonated And it comes on to another part So I think about myself, for example, and Scott as well in this, I did an international politics degree. Um, I now don't do anything to I'm not a member of European hoped I was going to be. part of that was because we

Speaker 3:

There's still time.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, we left the EU the It didn't help. Scott has done a film degree and as far as I'm aware, hasn't won an Oscar. So on paper, we might look at, Oh, well, according to the rules that is a failure on paper. But actually what that did is taught me halfway through my degree. I'm not I'm not necessarily interested in pursuing this full time. I did a part time job where I and went, oh, I really enjoy And it's, that's what's brought And you can, you can have these, these sort of adventures through, through life that on paper might almost seem like a failure because you've not done what the plan is set out to be, but you can end up with in something that makes you much happier. And it just made me think about your section of the book that talks about understanding that that majors and careers can be, um, not the same thing that actually a major can guide you through your academics, but your career can be in something completely different. I'd love to hear your, your

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I, I began with the students, certainly in an often at a more elite deep commitment to a liberal of the mind rather than a, an results in specific marketable So if you study international to think, well, wait a minute, the purpose of all of this? Um, and that's some of that is matching up reality with expectations. So in other words, if if you say to yourself, I'd like to study international relations, because it's interesting because having a lively life of the mind is a good thing. If as I move forward in life, I citizen, I want to be able to and be a skeptical. Member of society. Somebody who is following what's happening in Russia or Ukraine or um, uh, issues with the EU, etcetera. I need to be an informed So that's a good outcome. Yeah. In fact, you could argue that smaller colleges, especially founded for that very reason. In order to build a polity, to could, who could become leaders like that's a good outcome. Um, and as you look at our, at today's politics, you've got to think, well, why don't you know the difference? You know, what, what Medicare does or, uh, the role of health insurance and the situation or whatever uninformed citizenry makes sense. I'm now refocus here and to say open to what a college going to be less worried about pick and more focused on a set have and then skills that you That major does not have to So if you major in history or something, that's going to teach but it's not going to teach you Yeah, it's just not fair, right? It's like, it's like suggesting relationship will fulfill So that's why in really great opportunities in student groups you teamwork, um, alumni people who had the same happy to help you out and, and maybe a first job. Um, so if you, if you think a experience and think about what sort of cultivate a full life. While at university, careers will often take care of themselves. I will say one important caveat need your help to happen, right? They still need you to be You still need to be active in You need to network. Uh, when you post things online, employers in mind, not just Um, and, uh, oh, all of that is, You don't have to do it all at once because that's kind of overwhelming. But as you sort of think about a period, you can build up those for, for a good job.

Speaker 1:

It it's it's really good to hear I think there's for me, learning how to learn. Um, so I did a, I did, I did the learnt how to learn because I And I did that because I was, like you said, interested in that. I finished university, tried out didn't like it. Um, in, in the real world, But the skills I learned from how to talk to people, knowing pitch, knowing how to talk to bring a team together and skills are universally wanted. Um, and I think, How do you get

Speaker 4:

Yeah, that's that's a that's a Question. Um, some of that is that that So as they just grow older and that on their own. Um, a lot of the challenges of forms of counseling is that, you person, I can say things to they actually listening? And like, um, if they're absorbing it in a way that's it, uh, to a degree, yes. Otherwise, otherwise my career would really not be very meaningful. Um, but I think it's, um, I positive and encouraging. Um, and to be sure that students to them, this is where we can which is that if you coach that there are, there is a good there's an alumni association, networking opportunities that, should take advantage of. Um, uh, you know, I'm thinking I mentioned, I'm a Yale alumnus. I was just at a, at a gathering to watch the Yale football team play. Um, and there are lots of alums We're all having fun and having And that's a great opportunity and say, especially if, if I Uh, here's a group of older alums who are there because they are still connected to the institution. They love the place. Uh, use that, um, go, uh, go take advantage of those kinds of things. So, um, it's, it's challenging the, um, one of the most that's going on right now is get a college degree. Um, and I think that's a healthy conversation because it shouldn't be assumed that everyone should go to university. That's what you should do a lot of money. Um, and you want to be sure that that time and money are well spent. So there are going to be go at all, what should you do All of those things are healthy Um, but but worth, uh, worth

Speaker 2:

I think that that utility of higher education, that conversation is happening certainly, um, in the UK as well. We had a huge influx of, um, universities, um, sort of from onwards because the student loan been a lot of questions around route for, for, for all people? And how can we look at education universities transform for the, Uh, in, in, in this sort of ever, ever changing sort of landscape of, of, of higher education. And I think that there almost sometimes there's almost two We've got institutions that want to support student success and the idea of us being able to encourage failure. Um, and, and support students through that and say this messaging, which I think is really important. Of majors don't matter as much as, as a future career, but equally those same institutions have. Targets and metrics to, to, to stand on based off of student retention graduation. What their most popular majors Um, and advertising those same things at the same time, I guess as we're sort of wrapping the, the conversation up, what would your sort of key message to higher education professionals be that are wrestling with this ever changing sort of student dynamic and their own sort of KPIs and things as an institution, how do you marry that up?

Speaker 4:

I think this has to happen on One, it has to happen, uh, with that metric of student success and satisfaction. So there's the KPI is is more you're looking for. So be careful about how you're how they do it. Um, because as you well know, if be determined by where you want, So thinking about success in a setting some priorities, right? So because resources are not already exorbitant, cannot keep self-destructive, uh, pursuit of order to be successful. Right? So this, this is starting to create a kind of Unsustainable financial model for higher ed. When it was already struggling with that. Right. So sure, you can triple the But now you've tripled your Um, and now you have to pay for And who's going to pay for that? So there's a lot of tension I the good thing, of course, is really smart people. Uh, they just have to know that it's not enough to advocate for student success. You have to do it in a way So that's a complicated The second level is about the And this is where college presidents and politicians and other people who have a stake in the big, big picture really need to be a lot more flexible and innovative. Um, I think that just shoring up the four year model and throwing more resources at it, as I just said, is not going to work forever. Uh, and so they're going to need to start thinking about the model itself. For example, in a four year major to occupy, say, two thirds International studies, instead let's say it took up half of And the other half was spent on more practical and applicable in concept of internship, which is apprenticeship, uh, which is Why do we have one set of colleges that do practical apprenticeship like things and another that do purely intellectual things? These are two good ideas. They could be married to each other in one program, but we're not really thinking that, uh, that imaginatively. Um, so I think, uh, higher ed has, has a lot of work in front of it. Um, and because of demographic AI, etc., financial challenges, hundred thousand dollars a year It's just staggering. We're about to head off a cliff And I think that this requires a avoid the plunge.

Speaker 1:

I could not agree more. This has been such a fascinating Um. Loved every single moment. I could sit here all day and I don't know, looking at James, I feel like he could be the same. Absolutely, John, I appreciate

Speaker 3:

Me too guys.

Speaker 4:

Very fun. Very fun and interesting.

Speaker 1:

Thank you very much. Where did where do people find

Speaker 4:

You can find it on Amazon. Still sitting there. Um, you, uh, you can always, uh, I appreciate, uh, any interest in Dean's list working on the next edition? Um, right now with the thoughts of, uh, asking students, young alumni for and young people like yourselves, uh, what advice would you offer to, to current college students? Um, I think there's a, a near could take place. Somebody who's been out of has a lot to say about what just Um, and what that would have affected their decision making if they had known that, um, before. And I'll close with a quick When I first arrived at Hopkins, the student newspaper, which got I wrote myself a letter as a So in other words, if I could write a letter to me when I was eighteen, what would I say to myself? Um, what advice would I offer, uh, about my entire approach to, to college? That's a, that's, that has a lot of appeal for for engaging young alums in helping their, uh, current students. So I'm looking forward to that Check it out.

Speaker 1:

Amazing. That sounds like a that sounds should do just for themselves. I think just to self-reflect a Um, like I said, this has been Um, thank you so much for the Um, you have a great day.

Speaker 4:

You too. You too. Thank you guys. Uh, look forward to further

Speaker:

And that's a wrap. Thank you so much for joining us We hope you found the conversation valuable and that it gave you some ideas for how you can elevate your own student experience. Don't forget to hit that get your podcasts so you never Until next time, have an amazing