Learning Outcomes Leaders 001 | David Evans

Welcome to Learning Outcomes Leaders.

In this episode, we're joined by David Evans, former VP at USAO, to discuss his philosophy on reducing institutional friction to stop students from quitting out of frustration.

We'll analyze the economics of retention, including how a small emergency fund pays for itself and why some students are choosing high interest credit cards over federal loans.

Want to find out more? Let's get into the episode.

Transcript

Speaker: 0:02

Hello and welcome to Learning Brought to you by Genio. I'm James and I'm Scott. And on this podcast, you'll hear professionals who can talk the there and done it. We'll discuss some of their projects, and explore the most helped to improve and elevate In this episode, we're joined by to discuss his philosophy on to stop students from quitting We'll analyze the economics of emergency fund pays for itself choosing high interest credit Want to find out more? Let's get into the episode.

Speaker 2: 0:48

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I guess to sort of kick just hear what your origin story What was your sort of formative

Speaker 1: 0:59

Sure. Well, this is kind of an My mom was a professor and my And so those were kind of the Uh, and on my father's side, um, people involved in academics. His. His aunt, my great aunt was the first person in the United States to get a doctorate in theater. So that was kind of a tradition, My father, his father was a And so when I went to college, I both of those things. And I initially intended to be a Um, and I started out as a college and I didn't like that. And this is an embarrassing but Um, both of the intro politics college met at eight and eight Uh, and when I was, and when I couldn't manage that. So, um, and the earliest English So I thought, well, this is, Um, and my advisor said, well, fine to go to law school, so Um, but then in the summer year, I spent a month at program that at that time was I don't know if it still is or And I thought, you know, I really need a job that enables me to do things like this all the time. Um, and I thought, well, and I I loved reading and writing. Uh, so I just decided I'm going to go to grad school in English and that's what I ended up doing. And then I've, I've done the regular thing of being a faculty member and then an administrator. Um, and I've never really When I was in graduate school, I for a couple of years, which is, used to be educated, um, working And, um, I learned a tremendous amount and I'm grateful for that. But at the same time, uh, it was Uh, so, so I'm glad I ended up And since then, um, you know, I've been really, really interested. And of course, this is what you increasingly interested in ways Uh, my own education was pretty Um, you know, I went to one of the country, and then I went to Virginia, which is, you know, very strong institution. Um, and so I was sort of Uh, but my wife is a first she's the sixth of ten children, And they all have been very, me see the barriers that go a student if you are not from a granted that you're going to go I mean, my parents didn't save They saved to send me to kind of tells you how I grew up. Um, and so that's more and more in throughout my career because you know, first generation or other kinds of headwinds that Um, first of all, the value give to them is, is higher. Um, secondly, the social good that comes out of that, that part of higher education is just so, so important, uh, in terms of equity and in terms of providing economic opportunity for people. So that's where I have, have And I think that that's important, and I find it gratifying. Even though clearly it's a lot more challenging than serving the, you know, kind of very well prepared, uh, financially comfortable population of students that are pretty typical of where I went to undergraduate.

Speaker 4: 5:34

That's, that's, it's really good like your exposure to like said your wife, um, it being a exposure to that has made you where you can, where you can I think. So I'm a, I'm a, I'm a first gen Um, and I think there's so many first gens have. Like I went, I went, I'm the university, um, just because I I was like, no one else in my I'm gonna do it right. And I did it. And they were like, look, we're with much like we don't have So you're out there on your own. I'm like, yeah, I don't need I can do it all by myself. I desperately needed help. Um, but I was so stubborn, I But then I spoken to people who were like first gen graduates, and there they were, like, there was so much pressure put on them, right? To be the first person. Like, you're so clever. You're the smartest in the You're going to go to And then they've expected, then the, the, the element of a first gen. Whereas I, I saw struggles And so there's like so many Yeah. And like what, like when you gen graduates now or first gen Like some of the common things you most interested in like

Speaker 1: 7:09

Well, I think, um, you've, it already in your comment. Uh, one of the major things I think is, um, universities and colleges are in, in the way they sort of work are kind of black boxes. Not, not just to students, but in some ways to faculty and other people who work at them, which strikes me pretty constantly. You know, they don't know people that sort of thing. Um, so, but I think, you know, registrar's office or, um, you in the United States. Um, what is that? You know, I mean, what are these How do you do them? Uh, how, how do you navigate And that's one part of it, um, I mean, I think they're pretty mysterious to almost anybody, but but they're they're mysterious and frustrating, I think, to people who don't just sort of naturally feel like they belong. And I think a lot of first feel in one way or another that they've got imposter syndrome going on with them. And what I've found, and, and here at Usao. Um, it's kind of my mantra is you just have to reduce institutional friction. Um, and you have to make it as you possibly can for students financial aid, registration, all And it's, it's hard because again, you know, if you're an insider, Um, you just sort of take it for granted that, um, people know this stuff and and they don't. And again, I think one of the some familiarity with this from have kind of a tentative grip on or to, to go to university. Um, and so every little thing discouraging is kind of another, of, you know, not thinking it's want to keep doing it. Um, and I think that's a, that's Uh, so I, I think a lot of, a lot of what an institution that serves a lot of first generation students and a lot of students who have financial need and so on. Need to do is just make sure and friction free. Ah, so that students don't bump into those things that what when they encounter that they say, well, that's just I'm just done with this. It's, it's too, too much. Um, you know, I'm spending all I don't have a clear outcome. Um, I could be working, you money, doing this sort of thing, Um, that happens a lot, I think. Um, and students who, who leave will pretty much always tell you it's financial, uh, in my experience. And that I think is because hurt people's feelings, you my experience is in the been absolutely horrible. So I'm not I just can't deal they won't say that or my, my They won't they won't do that. Um, and so they'll say, well, I just can't afford to keep doing it. I need to work. Um, but that's, I mean, it's very often a factor, but it's certainly a lot less of a factor than it would show up in things like surveys.

Speaker 4: 11:28

Yeah. I think it's like, um, the financial element is, is, is, is the easiest thing to put it down. So the easiest thing for them,

Speaker 1: 11:40

And yeah, and you don't have to Nobody will say, well, what I mean, people will say, what office, what happened in the But people will never say, well, hours or something? I mean, no, no, nobody who's not insane would ever say something like that. Um, so. you know, you you have a very You're right. It's got, it's a, it's an easy shutting the door. Um, and I mean, I think it's institutions have been Um, and, and when things were thriving in higher education in the United States, uh, and I mean, my mom started as a faculty member in nineteen fifty nine. Um, and so, you know, right go to college and it was, there in terms of getting enrollment It was, it was fine. Um, and so the systems that were faculty and administration were satisfaction, which is a term But, um, you know, it sort of to college and couldn't figure Well, too bad there was always somebody else waiting to take that place. Um. And now that's most And I know it's not true in the Um, so there's both a pragmatic reason just from institutional survival and a philosophical reason, which is the idea of, uh, equity and access for, for students who really should be able to, um, as long as they have the will to do it, they should be able to, to make it through without a lot of impediments from the institution.

Speaker 4: 13:41

Yeah, yeah. And I completely agree. I think, um, there should, we should be doing everything we can to remove these barriers to help them get through to, to education and complete education. I think that brings us on this, the, the approach which three of your institutions. Uh, now you've told us a little Um, do you want to give us a the listeners and for us again, into it a little bit?

Speaker 1: 14:13

Sure. Well, I've, I've worked at more or less explicitly access high percentage of first gen financially needy students and So all of what we've already processes and barriers and But the other thing that we've and we're working on a very at the University of Science and intensive work on data with the areas of risk. Um, and so you, you, you develop well at a small school. I don't know how you do it at a you, you really look at it at an the, at the things that are and, and barriers to them. Um, and, and this ranges from, you know, what high school they went to. I mean, we have records about the levels of success from students from different high schools. So you can, you can tell, um, a grade point average from this A student with a three point two one is going to need support. Um, so that financial risk factors first gen, um, you know, test scores, we're test optional, but about three quarters of our students do it anyway. So we, we have that data. Um, and you and you really sort of develop those groups and you try to design some interventions for them. Um, and sometimes it's at the advisor, um, these are things X, for this student. Um, and we have an advising We have a professional advising center that advises first year students. So that's relatively easy. There are four staff members who do advising for the incoming students. So they know them. Um, and they, they get that data Um, and again, we've done that, uh, at university where I was the academic vice president, like I am here, um, at southern Vermont College, where I was the president. Uh, and again here, we're working this up right now, um, the University of Oklahoma, which is huge, uh, is only about forty miles from us, but they've done some really good work on student retention and they have developed a kind of predictive model. Um, and one of our people who is now he's a math faculty member, but he's called the, he has a special job, which is data retention analyst or a retention data analyst. Um, he's been working with them points where the interventions Um, we've talked to the people And one of the interesting things that they've found is some of the things that they thought would be predictive are, are really not, um, and some of the things that they thought were relatively indifferent, uh, predictors actually are pretty important. Um, and so we're trying to Um, I mean, we're in the kind of I would say, uh, but we're trying to figure out where we can best put our limited resources to support those students and help them be successful.

Speaker 2: 18:12

I find it quite interesting to question is obviously a lot of quite a big intersectionality that one student might present, As a result, there are working students and then there are time for student. Um, on top of that, they might also be, you know, first generation, etcetera. So I guess, how do you look at prioritize what challenges you And then what do some of the when you've got that almost menu on offer for those students? How do you go about finding that

Speaker 1: 18:52

Well, you mentioned time for our students work and and a lot Uh, we are relatively Uh, the total cost of attendance, if you paid full price here with residence hall and everything is about fifteen thousand dollars a year, which in the United States is really, really low. Um, but, um, we still have a lot work a lot. So one thing that we've been, because we are kind of under don't, we don't have as many um, is course scheduling. But one of the things that that happens to students who need to work is if their courses are scattered across the entire week, it makes them very difficult. It makes it very difficult for So last year we started to do And as we get better with analytics, this I think is going to help us try to schedule classes in such a way that it eliminates as many conflicts as we can. And this is also not just general access, but it's time to degree, right? If they if they can't get what they need, they end up graduating in five years instead of four. And there's all the opportunity Um, so we're trying to structure it doesn't cost anything. You know, it's just, well, it a lot in brainpower and faculty But, but, but it doesn't money, I guess I would say. So that's one that we're working Um, another small thing in the, just went to be the chief of Regents, which was sort of committed to this, but he set of money, something like sixty emergency fund, because you've you know, students, students who to drive kind of lousy cars. And so something like a flat going to work, which would in money to pay their bills and, those kind of things. And sometimes it's really just a need to sort of overcome this So we, we have that fund now. Um, and this was Georgia, Georgia State University, which is in downtown Atlanta, did kind of an intensive study of this a few years ago and found that it increased their graduation rates some ridiculous amount, like six percentage points. Um, um, Just this relatively to do that. So we've implemented that. Um, that's, that's really good. Um, we're continuing to work on advising and thinking about the best way we can advise and this is really to reduce barriers again. Um, improper advising costs a You, you either have to waive requirements or you have to have students stay longer, or you have to do special arrangements, all of which are, are, are not so great. Um, and we have some state general education that, that, We can't we cannot waive them. We can waive any of our internal But the, the state rules, we, we Um, so you want to make sure you Um, we're also looking at, you know, what kind of programming in terms of a first year seminar, which we're ambivalent about the version of it that we do now. But what kind of programming can help our students understand our resources and how to employ our resources, and how to make wise decisions? Um, so another thing that we did last year, which was interesting and scary, uh, is we have a lot of students who pay their bills with credit cards and, you know, this is fine if you're getting miles or something for it, right? Um, and then you just pay it But, um, we, our Chief Financial officer and our financial aid person and some other people did some questioning of these students. And a lot of times it was federal student loans. And federal student loans have all kinds of problems in the United States. I don't don't want to gloss over But, you know, the interest rates like six percent and the credit card is, you know, twenty three percent or something like that. Um, you know, why are you doing Um, and here in Oklahoma, it's because people don't trust the government. Uh, it's, you know, quite a And so there's a lot of to do with government program. But, um, you know, that's just a Um, the, so, so more education How do you, um, you know, much better idea and a much than just putting it on the So that's, that's another part Um, and so this is where we are Um, we also, Uh, did a student I've been here about a year and Um, and it became really clear our faculty and staff survey was nowhere near good enough. Um, so we, we've hired a full time counselor and we had somebody who worked in our disability accommodations office who'd also finished a master's degree in counseling, but had to have the, uh, supervised clinical hours to, to get her license. So we hired our, our counselor to, uh, with in mind the idea that she could be the clinical supervisor for the accommodations person. So we, we got a full time counselor and then we got, you know, more or less three quarters of another full time counselor through this clinical program. So, uh, that's helped us a lot Uh, although they are both completely booked, which suggests to me that we need even more there. Um, but you know, you try to be spend money like this. But if you can save six, like emergency fund, if you save six standpoint, it pays for itself. Um, and, and I think the the other people on the decided that that's the way to Uh, I don't think people earlier at the university were doing that. I don't think they were thinking They were thinking about Um, and I think that that, uh, So we're, we're trying to fix Um.

Speaker 4: 26:32

It's, it's, it's interesting is that like saving six students to do that. I think that's how most like a student themselves. The benefit from finishing the going on to a good career. But the institution itself student there as well. Just by giving these simple things like, I love the idea of the flat tire fund like that is that's amazing. It's like such a holistic, like thinking that these small things Right. And, and.

Speaker 1: 27:17

Well, and they and the thing is, they'll always remember that too. Um, and you know, some of your alumni are going to do really well. Um, and, and so it's to me, it And, and just Uh, a little bit different track, but related to this. So I was the interim president Bulgaria in Bulgaria, uh, during And a lot of us, we had about seventy percent students from Bulgaria. And it is, uh, uh, to borrow a nation of shopkeepers. Uh, and, you know, so a lot of you know, ran restaurants or kinds of things. Um, and Covid was disastrous for Um, you know, there was, there where the government only grocery stores and liquor stores Um, and so if you ran a restaurant or, uh, you know, any kind of other, other little store. Whatever. You were not making any money. Um, and so we, we raised close. Well, it was around a million student emergency fund. And it was done by application. We appointed a committee and we, But, um, we just by application basically just gave that money to students and, and said, you know, we know that there are problems and, you know, this is an emergency. And we, um, you know, applied And as a result of that, we had from financial reasons during we were able to float them Um, I mean, fortunately, was less than it would be here But, uh, we were able to do And then the same thing again happened with the Russian Ukrainian war, because we had at the time that it broke out, we had about thirty Ukrainian students and twenty Russian students. And among other things, the the Russian students were cut off from the international banking system. I mean, that you may remember Um, they just shut Russia off international banking system. So they even if they had the Um, and this was not just tuition and fees and stuff like that. This was groceries. You know, they couldn't go to the ATM and get their money out or anything. Um, so we, we again raised some some very generous foundations, that they, you know, they might comfortable, but at least they Um, and, and again, I think are made up of people. Uh, and I think you want to And really, the, the institution the sort of decision making Um, and again, it's an Those Russian students, those Ukrainian students were able to stay. Um, they, I pretty much all of it's been three years. Um, but they were able to stay, Now they're off doing all, knew better than the Russians. Um, you know, they're doing all kinds of interesting stuff and they're, they're working in London. They're, they're uh, in, um, you You know, it could have been a I mean, it was a disaster, but a disaster in terms of their Because for not all that much money, we were able to keep them going. Um, this just I mean, this seems Uh, you know, it's, it's not all education, I don't think, but it um, you know, this is, this is an investment both in the future of the institution.

Speaker 2: 31:55

I think we've seen this real shift over over the last few decades, where university is and always will be a competitive environment for students to get into university. But because of things like the enrollment cliff, it's actually now becoming more and more competitive between universities to get students to retain those students. And I think these these things, to, you know, you go to a experience, you'll tell one you have a bad experience, so even for, for a student to Maybe they have mental health If they go to university that's going to help them stay. They're going to tell people The same then goes for things all of a sudden you're actually get students to enroll in the generation is, is knowing that, university and it was fantastic. They had a flat tire once. And do you know the university paid for that to get them back into school? It's no money. But all of a sudden, it's not And we look at the the students saved per year by the time we're happening, that that number is, So I think it's the longer term it's, it's a no brainer, but that mental shift as well.

Speaker 1: 33:20

I think that's that's absolutely And I think it's even more right is for large institutions. So here, um, in Oklahoma, the enormously huge brand. You know, uh, gigantic American football team, you know, basketball, all, all the things that go with a great big university. Um, and it's, you know, it's So that's, that's nice. I mean, you, you, you can get a Um, so people are just automatically kind of gravitating there. Um, and, and again, there's, um, there's also an incentive to graduate from there because it's the pathway to the power structure. I mean, it's, it's like, this is not a really entirely fair comparison, but it's like Oxbridge, right? Where you, you know, if you, if you go there and do reasonably well, you know, you make all kinds of connections and get to get to do all kinds of cool things. Um, and you know, so for us, um, sell, uh, in, in a different And so for us, it's, um, making those pathways and creating those pathways. And James, you're absolutely right about word of mouth on a lot of our students are from small towns. You know, they go to small high Um, they have younger siblings, Um, and if they have a great And if they have a bad experience, you're absolutely right. They'll, they'll tell a lot more Um, and the same thing was true I mean, Bulgaria is a, is a very kinds of ways. And, you know, so there are that students have. And we found that we had some we example, when I got there, we who was amazingly talented and, variety of ways. Um, all of a sudden, a few years later, we have like seventeen Palestinian students. Um. Um, and, you know, the same It happened with Georgia, the Um, you know, and it's just so fundamental to institutional success. Uh, again, especially for a not, you know, Harvard or something like that. Um, it's, it's so essential and institution has that commitment. Uh, and if that, that commitment becomes kind of part of your brand story, um, it will help you be successful even with the enrollment cliff and things like that.

Speaker 4: 36:27

So all of this work around like, data from, um, students coming methods to be able to support specific subsets of students. There must be challenges that collecting or not collecting is Like when you're like collating putting it together to try and some of the things that are most And then when putting together challenges in terms of like that you want to do or just

Speaker 1: 37:14

Um, a lot of it is getting Um, we are not outstanding at Um, and so, um, that's a little bit hard and, and one particular part of this that I think is especially salient. So I mentioned earlier, we have an advising center that does our first year students, um, that met with a tremendous amount of resistance from faculty and faculty really like, um, at least the mentoring part of advising. Uh, I mean, I remember from haven't been a full faculty but, but I advised beyond that, fun to talk to students and, you to do and kind of strategize all those sorts of things. I mean, it's really, it's one of Um, but Advising um has become variety of reasons. Um, and, you know, programs are And here I've mentioned our resource constraints in terms of faculty. So there are sequences of you're not going to get it until which may be two years later, Um, and, and so, um, we're more comprehensive that advising don't, well, some of the don't like it, you know, they Uh, but unfortunately, you get a, a very uneven result from faculty advising because some of them are great and some of them are not. Um, and so you wind up and this friction points that I was advising errors and you get a graduation and what they think And it turns out that they need I mean, they got enough hours, but they don't have enough, enough courses. Um, or they don't have, you requirements or whatever. Now we're addressing that partly information system and hopefully But, um, you know, you just reasons we've already discussed. You just can't have that. And faculty are, and this is This isn't just here, you know, faculty are generally pretty resistant to things like advising, training. Um, you know, they're I'm an I didn't go to graduate school to learn about, you know, how to advise general education or whatever. Um. so we're, we're working on So that's an implementation I mean, we've decided to do it. Uh, we just need to kind of sell that it's going to work. So that's one. Um, the other thing is, um. How do you get, if you, if you if they're not necessarily at they're at the kind of you, how do you address those, Um, and here's an example for So we are a Native American uh, between twenty five and are Native American. We're right. We're right in the middle of the Uh, our land is from the Chickasaw back in the nineteenth century. So, um, you know, we're, we're very much embedded in that, which is a big, big thing in Oklahoma. So we have money from the And one of the things that we have is a financial counselor, uh, who is not part of the financial aid office is completely separate. And this is a person who's properly trained, uh, you know, about, about all these kinds of issues. Um, getting students to use her Um, and it, and again, it goes about using credit cards instead Um, and you can do things like like that, but if the, the it doesn't do any good. Uh, so how do you, how do you that it reaches the people it And my experience has been with a lot of things, um, with these services in a in a broad brush way. The people who need them the most are the ones who are least likely to avail themselves of them. Um, and this is just kind of a Um, how do you, how do you get your students to, uh, recognize and be willing to do the things that would, would really help them and ultimately would be not painful. Um, but, but actually helpful Um, but how do you get them to, do those things? So that's a, I mean, in the broadest sense, that's another implementation problem. Um, and one that, you know, if I make a lot of money and retire. Uh, but, but I mean, you just need to work at that and it's messaging. Um, it's again, it's the touch So it's advising it's It's the financial aid office. You know, have you thought of We have this person who can talk And it won't leak over into your financial aid conversation at all. It's completely separate thing. Separate office. Go talk. Um, you know, we have a college Why don't you go and talk to her about about this challenge that you're facing? Um, you know, all those kinds of And again, this is, it's a culture question in the broadest sense. Um, need, need work.

Speaker 4: 43:43

It kind of hits home for me a little bit like being first gen, having dyslexia and just being a stubborn boy. Um, I, I wish someone would just sit me down and at university and just gone, you can have access to these things that would make life so much easier for you and you're told it to me straight. Um, because I refused so much I knew it was there, but I Understand why it was going to could do this on my own, then I But if someone could just sat me going to be able to do this on it better because you have these Yeah, yeah, it hits home.

Speaker 1: 44:26

Well, and there's a lot of and, this, there's a lot of pride Um, and one thing and I was talking to somebody else about this the other day about first gen status, um, in a lot of institutions that's kind of hidden. And Scott, I don't know if that was your experience as an undergraduate. Um, one thing that we do here and, and the head of our student success center, who is, I know, Scott, you've talked to, talked to her. She's just so amazing. Um, she is a first generation college student and she didn't go here, but she's from this area. So she understands the culture. And she and some other people So we have a first generation celebration day and you see a lot of our students, they have these t shirts that say first generation proud. And there's there's a national I don't know where else schools a pretty big way. So there's a, you know, there's they get these cool t shirts. And, um, I actually snagged one of those t shirts and gave it to my wife. Um, and she was again, as a the University of Iowa. So she went to one of these Um, she was, I think, kind of moved by it, you know, that there was this sort of recognition and, and I refuse to wear one. They offered me one. I said, look, I'm not a first I'm not going to appropriate But I think that's another Is, is kind of taking it out of know, it's really okay. In fact, it's not just okay, You know, you know, you, you hard to cross. Congratulations. You know, you've made a know, try this thing that's Uh, bravo. You know, and and I loved it. Um, it was really fun last year, and it's, I think it's in the early spring. It's like in February or Um, but I'm really looking forward to that because I think that once again, that's something, you know, not just okay, but hey, yeah, we're glad you're here. Good on you. Um, and that, again, is something that I think is so important. It's like, yeah, the institution actually knows about this, thinks it's important and cares about it. Uh, and that's another, I mean, I love that stuff because again, I, you know, I, I'm sensitive to this whole, the idea of kind of the total experience, uh, and how that total experience, you know, shapes everything that comes after. I mean, I think a good college who goes to college. But, but, um, you know, for think it's even more important. I mean, I always knew I was Um, the people I went to college were going to make it, you know? Um, that was, that was the least Now this was in the eighties, so But, but you know, um, there was It's like, yeah, sure. What the hell? Being an art history major. Because, you know, you're going people, there's going to be a Um, but but I think, um, you know, students who don't have the ability to have that kind of certainty, uh, you know, celebrating them in a different way is really, really important and helpful.

Speaker 2: 48:22

Uh, I love that turning, turning moment of pride is, is huge. Like as a, as a first gen student myself, it was, it was something that was never talked about. I didn't know, I knew that I was struggling, but I didn't know that that might be one of the reasons why. And so being able to sort of of, well, you know, this is further than what your family And, and, you know, you're, of, of, of your capabilities nice thing to be able to do. I guess as we're sort of coming towards, towards the end of this podcast, we're really, really enjoying this. I wish we could. We could go for about four Um, I guess we've talked about a structures that you've already And this is always going to be evolving, um, and sort of being Be good to sort of understand term sort of effects being on, Um, so far and, and what have Um, so far?

Speaker 1: 49:24

Yeah. Well, I mean, at southern Vermont and, and, you know, I don't want to steal credit for something that I, that I didn't do or wasn't really involved with, but our, our graduation rate, our four year graduation rate had been somewhere in the vicinity of twenty seven percent. Um, and in twenty seventeen, so about halfway through my time there, uh, our graduation rate had gone up to forty two percent, which is still honestly not great, but, you know, it was fifty percent higher than it had been. Um, And it was things that my done plus, plus mine. Um, a lot of this, a lot of the in terms of interventions and Um, so that was huge, right? Uh, I mean, that's, that's a really big, important difference. Um, here, this really started last year. And so it's not entirely clear, um, what's, what's happened yet, although what I would say is, and I, it's hard to untangle causality on this, but just as an example. So last year, um, we had at this first time full time students. And this year we have two Uh, and that, uh, maybe James some of the things that you and things like that. Um, it will remain to be seen what happens in terms of retention and progression to graduation and that sort of thing, but it's a good leading sign. Um, and I think the other thing And this is, you know, we've been talking about data and I'm just going to throw all the data out the window and, and talk about buzz. You know, you, you have kind of a positive buzz on campus, right? Um, you have people engaged in So I went last night, for example, uh, to our first volleyball game. It may have, may have been our It may have been our second, but the last one. Um, and, um, we are a very small students altogether, but there the volleyball game yesterday. Ah, and there was a whole all kinds of stuff. Well, you know, volleyball is a Uh, but there was this sort of there was this sort of feel in you know, and this is another Is, um, if you have a campus fun, it gives students something they're struggling academically So, um, so that was kind of nice And, and, um, I think we'll see things like engagement in student clubs. This is a measure also. Um, but we're, we're early days on this, uh, we did with the financial, the emergency financial thing. Um, it definitely made a dozen students last year. Uh, no question about that. And of course, they're tracked individually, so we know who they are. Um, uh, you know, so, so that's And again, it's so much of this is just about creating the atmosphere. Um, and, you know, I, I, I can't say enough about how important that is. I mean, I think back to Bulgaria had this incredible campus community and we just were afraid with Covid that that a bomb had been dropped on it and it was going to take years to rebuild. Um, so a lot of what we tried to that was, you know, keep that Uh, and I think we succeeded because they also are enjoying record freshman enrollment there this year. Um. It's, it's again, it's kind So every little bit. And we've mentioned this is, you know, kind of another towards students being them fond of the institution and Um, so we'll see. And I'll be glad to talk to you these things have worked because some of the stuff that we going to be happening this year. Uh, and I think that's, um,

Speaker 4: 54:28

Amazing. Amazing. I mean, we would we would love to talk to you again in a year and see and see where stuff's gone. But before we, before we wrap up, um, the reason for this podcast is to, is, is to share information. Um, it's for other people to know how they could do something like this. Throughout our conversation today, it's felt like it's been a lot of a mindset shift, I think, or, or just a certain mindset. What would you say to someone who's looking to do something similar? Um, how would they go about Where would their head be? What would they need to do?

Speaker 1: 55:05

I, I think you just have to And you and this is a cliche, you have to teach and work with you want a different kind of I think at an institution like Buena Vista or an institution you have to be genuinely proud Um, and, and this goes to the hobby horse of mine, but this higher education, right? The, the, the whole thing is Uh, and I remember early in my about that whole thing. Um, but the better way to go as a professional, develop a, satisfaction is to figure out trying to do, and then take Um, so if you're not a professor at Harvard, well, you know, there aren't a lot of professors at Harvard. You know, be glad that you're Um, and that's where my own you know, changing that mindset. Uh, and, you know, my wife has a frankly, which is good. You know, she's like, stop being Um, but I think that's really And I think the question is, and this has been in my role as a, as a leader, every place, what is going to do the best thing for the students that we have and how are they going to be helped? And it's whether it's academic like the, the pandemic and you that our population was going to to address those. I think that's really, really And if you're at a teaching there's kind of no excuse for Um, and so that's my first question always is, you know, what's going to work for the students? And this is not about coddling This is not about giving them It's none of the things that people say are bad about this approach. Um, it's, it's just about, you are our students and what's And then, and then doing the

Speaker 2: 57:54

I love that. I think it's a, I think it's a Um, it's something that we students first and then you And you touched on the buzz that the other day. And for audio listeners, you can see I'm surrounded by, um, hockey jerseys. That's a, that feeling of a going to score before they've And I think it's the same can definitely be said, whether that's in business or any, any organization, any team, you get that feeling. So yeah, definitely. We'd love to have you on in a See what that buzz has converted to in terms of those results, what you've learned from this year? Um, you know, going into going So David, thank you so much. Uh.

Speaker 1: 58:41

It's a real pleasure. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 58:43

We've, we've really, really And I'm sure everyone will take, important lessons from today. So thank, you.

Speaker 1: 58:51

Know, thank you all and thank I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about these things that I'm passionate about. Thanks so much.

Speaker: 59:03

And that's a wrap. Thank you so much for joining us We hope you found the conversation valuable and that you gave you some ideas for how you can elevate your own student experience. Don't forget to hit that get your podcasts so you never Until next time, have an amazing